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Old 04-07-2011, 08:57 PM
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A Case For Replacing the Freeze Plugs

Although these freeze plugs are hardy enough to out live these engines, and myself,, Getting to the crud behind them is worth the price of new ones. I spent a good hour digging around in the exhaust manifold with a coat hanger and rinsing in the sink with water and thought I had made some real progress. Then I removed the drain plug and it was solid with crud. SO,, I decided to take out the Freeze Plugs and here is what I found.
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Last edited by 13jeff13; 04-07-2011 at 09:11 PM.
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Old 04-07-2011, 09:02 PM
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Cleaning out the exhaust manifold...

I'm currently soaking the inside with vinegar, as I head out to get some Calcium and Lime remover from the dollar store,, Generic CLR.

The plugs in the Engine and head seem to be just as solid as these,,, so I don't plan on removing them, as they were no where near as packed with crud as the exhaust manifold.
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Last edited by 13jeff13; 04-07-2011 at 09:07 PM.
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Old 04-07-2011, 09:04 PM
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Jeff...great pics.
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Old 04-08-2011, 08:31 AM
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Good find. Now take it a step further and replace the freeze plugs with 3/4" NPT brass plugs.

Last edited by hanleyclifford; 07-13-2016 at 08:35 PM.
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Old 04-08-2011, 12:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 13jeff13 View Post
Although these freeze plugs are hardy enough to out live these engines, and myself,, Getting to the crud behind them is worth the price of new ones. I spent a good hour digging around in the exhaust manifold with a coat hanger and rinsing in the sink with water and thought I had made some real progress. Then I removed the drain plug and it was solid with crud. SO,, I decided to take out the Freeze Plugs and here is what I found.
Oh s#!&. I really wish you hadn't shown me that.

I spent a bunch of time flushing out my manifold and digging around with a coat hanger. I also filled it with muriatic acid and let it sit for a while and flushed it out. I got a fair amount of stuff out, and had a good flow of water through it, but did not remove the freeze plugs. And then I painted it all pretty. The last thing I want to do now is tear out those plugs. I would have to clean it all up and re-paint it again...
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Old 04-08-2011, 06:17 PM
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Originally Posted by hanleyclifford View Post
Good find. Now take it a step further and replace the freeze plugs with 3/4" NPT brass plugs.
Great Idea,, I believe I will.
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Old 04-08-2011, 06:25 PM
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Originally Posted by ILikeRust View Post
Oh s#!&. I really wish you hadn't shown me that.

I spent a bunch of time flushing out my manifold and digging around with a coat hanger. I also filled it with muriatic acid and let it sit for a while and flushed it out. I got a fair amount of stuff out, and had a good flow of water through it, but did not remove the freeze plugs. And then I painted it all pretty. The last thing I want to do now is tear out those plugs. I would have to clean it all up and re-paint it again...
I think my engine had a hard life. The PO had tried to do some upgrades,, but I don't think they ever dug in elbow deep,, and since I"M HERE<< You know,,, Why Not. I almost quit with just the hangar method,,But since I got the plugs out, I just keep getting more and more crud,, Thick chunky stuff too,, I Now Plan a MAJOR clean up of the whole exhaust system,, No Telling how packed it will be. It looks new though,, perhaps a failed attempt at a mystery overheating problem. ,, I believe I found that cause. Poor Water Flow.
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Old 04-08-2011, 06:49 PM
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Odd thought.. how possible would it be to gauge the amount of crud inside by the volume of water it will hold? IE, once it is nice and clean, fill it with water, poor out the water and measure it. Then others could do the same, and if the amount of water it will hold is much less, they will know it is still full of crud and they should pull the freeze plugs??

I'm not sure if it would be accurate enough, or if the variations in the casting process would make them all to different for this to be of use, I'm just thinking through the keyboard here as I do not want to pull the freeze plugs in the manifold, but now I am wondering if I should, or if there is a way to tell beforehand if I should...
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Old 04-08-2011, 07:05 PM
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Wouldn't one of those IR thermometers indicate obstructed flow? Totally non-contact and non-destructive.
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Old 04-08-2011, 07:11 PM
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Hi Jeff.

Look at pressure testing the manifold following installation of the new frost plugs as well.

I realize you removed them as a precaution and their replacement is not the result of inadequate winterization. That said, I do believe that there are numerous fractured / ruptured manifolds every spring due to using R/V antifreeze to winterize the engine. Rust corrodes the inner wall over the years and it may not withstand any expansion / pressure.

It is my sincere belief that come fall we should be advising afourians to winterize those engines with 50/50 automotive antifreeze...anything less, in my humble opinion, is just playing Russian Roulette.

Everyone have a great weekend.
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Old 04-08-2011, 08:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 13jeff13 View Post
I think my engine had a hard life. The PO had tried to do some upgrades,, but I don't think they ever dug in elbow deep,, and since I"M HERE<< You know,,, Why Not. I almost quit with just the hangar method,,But since I got the plugs out, I just keep getting more and more crud,, Thick chunky stuff too
If it was in your manifold, it's likely in yer block, too...

I got a bunch of greasy, gooey, gritty crud out of the block - a lot of stuff - and also a bunch out of the head. Not as much out of the manifold.

I feel pretty confident I got everything out now and all the water passages are as clear as they possibly can get at this point.
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Old 04-08-2011, 09:37 PM
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Originally Posted by BryanLee View Post
Odd thought.. how possible would it be to gauge the amount of crud inside by the volume of water it will hold? IE, once it is nice and clean, fill it with water, poor out the water and measure it. Then others could do the same, and if the amount of water it will hold is much less, they will know it is still full of crud and they should pull the freeze plugs??

I'm not sure if it would be accurate enough, or if the variations in the casting process would make them all to different for this to be of use, I'm just thinking through the keyboard here as I do not want to pull the freeze plugs in the manifold, but now I am wondering if I should, or if there is a way to tell beforehand if I should...
Great Idea,, a little too late for before Volume,, BUT I will take a measurement of the After Volume for any who may want to check theirs out.
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Old 04-08-2011, 09:43 PM
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Roto Rooter

After letting her sit the day away with CLR, a calcium, lime and rust remover product, I devised a home made Roto Rooter device I will be attaching to my drill to see if I can get any extra junk out. It is actually a drain cleaner, tightly coiled spring,, that will spin around inside there. It would be nice to see a cross section view of what exactly is suppose to be open inside there.

Anyone Ever Cut One Open?
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Old 04-08-2011, 09:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ILikeRust View Post
If it was in your manifold, it's likely in yer block, too...

I got a bunch of greasy, gooey, gritty crud out of the block - a lot of stuff - and also a bunch out of the head. Not as much out of the manifold.

I feel pretty confident I got everything out now and all the water passages are as clear as they possibly can get at this point.
Yep,, I took the Block and Head to the car wash and gave it a good flushing out. They are visible enough to see they are clear, the manifold though, just has too small of openings to be certain.
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Old 04-09-2011, 01:25 AM
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We have now discovered a "6th" spark plug on Hanley's engine!
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Old 04-09-2011, 10:54 AM
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Talking

Actually the manifold in the picture has since developed an internal leak and has been sent to A4 Valhalla. The replacement has been similarly modified for 3/4" NPT plugs instead of freeze plugs. This provides convenient locations for temp sensors or future coolant routing modifications. The O2 sensor is tapped for 18mm which I think is industry standard.
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Old 01-07-2012, 04:34 PM
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Manifold

I recently got my Block and Misc parts back from my machinist. I believe I am going to Paint the block with a Clear High temp Paint. Meant for Manifolds.

Hanley,, my machinist advised against tapping the threads for the 3/4 NPT. He said it would need to be tapered and didn't feel there would be enough room to do it properly without running into the back wall before he got enough threads,, and was worried about cracking the exterior wall.

Had some issues with machinist,, he had to do the Cam Bearings 2 times, the first set one of the bearings buckled when pushing it in its hole,, Long story,, second set he got it right,, he paid for the new bearings,, just a hassle.
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Old 01-10-2012, 01:01 PM
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Wondering if you had those new cam bearings "line reamed"?

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Old 01-10-2012, 05:02 PM
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It does look like something is going on with those cam bearings , I thought it may have been the camera magnification.
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Old 01-10-2012, 11:28 PM
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cam bearings

Nope....not a photo problem... A machinest helper problem. He got the bearing started in a little crooked, and it crinkled/ disfigured the bearing. THEN he thought it wouldn't be noticed, after he tried to polish it up.....
The owner bought me new bearings and pressed them in himself. Just a pain.

I do still have the other 2 bearings which appear to be ok if this should happen to anyone else. I ordered the set of 3 and watched him press out the old and in the new. The others look fine if someone could use them. Like i needed just one ....
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Old 01-11-2012, 08:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 13jeff13 View Post
Nope....not a photo problem... A machinest helper problem. He got the bearing started in a little crooked, and it crinkled/ disfigured the bearing. THEN he thought it wouldn't be noticed, after he tried to polish it up.....
The owner bought me new bearings and pressed them in himself. Just a pain.

I do still have the other 2 bearings which appear to be ok if this should happen to anyone else. I ordered the set of 3 and watched him press out the old and in the new. The others look fine if someone could use them. Like i needed just one ....

A cam bearing pressed in (or out) with the proper tool will not damage the bearings in any way;

...the cam bearing still needs to be line reamed with the proper reamer which is long enough to bridge to the cam bearing in the opposite side of the engine.

These are the sort of techniques that mean the difference between rebuilding an engine once; or tearing it down shortly after start-up and having to rebuild it twice.

Just ask Moyer Marine...
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Old 01-11-2012, 09:17 PM
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A cam bearing pressed in (or out) with the proper tool will not damage the bearings in any way;

...the cam bearing still needs to be line reamed with the proper reamer which is long enough to bridge to the cam bearing in the opposite side of the engine.

These are the sort of techniques that mean the difference between rebuilding an engine once; or tearing it down shortly after start-up and having to rebuild it twice.

Just ask Moyer Marine...

The second set of bearings went in well. The cam turns freely. Do you have to line bore?

Jeff
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Old 01-11-2012, 11:56 PM
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The second set of bearings went in well. The cam turns freely. Do you have to line bore?

Jeff
You don't ever have to do any thing you don't want to do...but if you want the engine rebuild to last (and it appears to me you have been working diligently on the motor)...then line boring (reaming) of the new cam bearings should be done;

"Our new block is fully machined, including line boring of the main journals and cam bearings. It also has new valve guides, new cam bearings, an oil pump bench-tested to insure original performance, and a pencil zinc for additional corrosion protection located directly in front of the water jacket side plate."

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Old 01-12-2012, 10:07 AM
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The second set of bearings went in well. The cam turns freely. Do you have to line bore?

Jeff
No, you don't have to. If the cam spins freely, I'm not sure what boring will accomplish.

"It aint a Porsche," is a reply I've often received from Moyer when asking similar questions.
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Old 01-12-2012, 10:22 AM
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When I disassembled and reassembled my engine, I replaced the main bearings, but not the cam bearings. I detected no play whatsoever in the cam, it spun nice and smoothly, the bearing visually appeared to be in excellent condition, so I figured there was no point in pulling them out and replacing them.
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