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  #176   IP: 193.253.220.149
Old 11-17-2011, 10:49 AM
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Dutton modification

Great update Shawn.

My own efforts parallel yours but I can't report any testing as I'm fighting on two fronts: cooling and ignition circuits. I've currently got my alternator removed in order to get at my solenoid which needed attention. My HX is in the car as I assemble parts for my conversion from single-pass to dual-pass cooling (this one excites me as overheating even pre-dates my ignition woes).

The Pertronix coil will be protected with some extra resistance thanks to my "Dutton modification". I've used his handy calculator and relied on his long-distance help in putting together a -hopefully- sturdy ignition setup. I'm definitely tired of burning up coils and motoring with rosary beads in my hands.

I hope to be back soon with some real world numbers.
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  #177   IP: 71.253.250.181
Old 11-17-2011, 01:36 PM
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So,,,,,
with so many things to test, and finding "just" the right resistor for the coil, and finding the right coil,making sure the alternator puts out the perfect tenth of a volt out....
How now,would you sell the benefiet of the EI to others?

I switched my 68 mustang decades ago to petronix because I was just wearing the follower off the points, and did feel it was a smoother set-up.
I also put a MSD box on there, and all that hot rod stuff...

But now, with my A4 having such low rpms, which is the greater hassle?
points or potentail of burning up coils, and the like?
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  #178   IP: 206.125.176.3
Old 11-17-2011, 03:42 PM
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Daniel, Exactly!
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  #179   IP: 99.50.221.233
Old 11-17-2011, 05:27 PM
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If I may . . . .

Daniel et al,

I too was skeptical of EI before I made the switch because I read time and time again on this forum about EI failures only to be rescued by reinstalling the old points plate. There's a post somewhere deep in the archives where I put the same question as you out there to the believers. What convinced me to convert were the favorable reports from many of the most respected players here, the big dawgs so to speak.

First, the advantages:
  • No more cam shoe wear as you mentioned. Small or not so small, it affects dwell.
  • No more points erosion.
  • No moisture related issues.
  • Less electronic noise.

The only disadvantage is the EI system's sensitivity to system amperage. With the majority of A-4 EI units being Pertronix, the biggest problem I see is the lack of solid technical information from them. That has been the most frustrating part. Had they been forthcoming with a maximum system amperage figure and not been contradictory with their technical advice I don't think we would have more than maybe a 1 - 2% failure rate, if that. I pulled that number out of my 'hat', an estimated statistical failure rate as with any manufactured product.

If all of us who made the move to EI had only followed Don's advice from February 2005 of a 4 ohm coil, none of this would have happened. None of it.

I used a 3 ohm coil. After all, Pertronix - whose name is on the EI unit - said their coil (3 ohm) was the perfect match to their EI system. Well, it ain't. The math works out at 12 volts but once you consider alternator voltage when the engine is running - somewhere between 13.8 and 14 + volts (less system voltage drop), their math flies out the window.

Using a coil or coil and resistor combination of 4 ohms protects the EI system up to 16 volts. Pertronix won't tell you that (why I don't know) but Don did nearly seven years ago.

The math or alternatively the provided resistor calculator varies because all of us have different voltages at the coil due to differences in wiring systems and their resultant voltage drop and differences in alternator output voltages (the manually adjustable crowd often being the worst offenders). The 4 ohm coil figure works well for those who flunked math.

So, in summary, it isn't the EI that's the problem, it's what we ignorantly connected to it. Don said 4 ohms, many of us connected 3 ohms and failure resulted, simple as that.
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Last edited by ndutton; 11-17-2011 at 05:35 PM. Reason: punctuation
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  #180   IP: 151.200.26.6
Old 11-17-2011, 08:24 PM
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Talking

Quote:
Originally Posted by ndutton View Post
The math or alternatively the provided resistor calculator varies because all of us have different voltages at the coil due to differences in wiring systems and their resultant voltage drop and differences in alternator output voltages (the manually adjustable crowd often being the worst offenders). The 4 ohm coil figure works well for those who flunked math.
- I can take a hint! I am up to 4.8 Ω in the circuit!
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Last edited by sastanley; 08-01-2012 at 11:18 AM. Reason: I figured out the alt code for the omega character! (234)
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  #181   IP: 24.152.131.155
Old 11-17-2011, 08:28 PM
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I toned it down from "control freaks." Have you tried skipping that manual regulator across the inlet yet?

Remember the coil voltage is considerably less during starting due to starter load and no alternator contribution. Accordingly, resistance in the circuit can be overdone. Thatch's testing showed a minimum of 9 volts at the coil (if I recall) before performance degrades. Too much resistance could affect starting.
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  #182   IP: 151.200.26.6
Old 11-17-2011, 08:39 PM
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Neil, good info..that type of stuff is yet to be determined..I can tell you that I agree with Tom T. that too little voltage can slow starting..& I might currently be right on the edge, since she doesn't "come alive" instantly with the current configuration. Maybe I need a switch to 'turn on' my resistor once the engine is running..
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  #183   IP: 193.253.220.149
Old 11-18-2011, 04:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sastanley View Post
she doesn't "come alive" instantly with the current configuration. Maybe I need a switch to 'turn on' my resistor once the engine is running..
and

Quote:
Originally Posted by kelly
I assume this would also mean running a wire from the starter+ to the coil+ to have full battery volts while cranking?
This was my question back in post #20. Our resistance is calculated taking into account contributions from the alternator. My thinking was to provide full battery volts to the coil during cranking by running a power wire from the starter. That way the direct connection to the battery is broken when you turn the ignition from "start" to "run".

Make sense?
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  #184   IP: 206.125.176.5
Old 11-18-2011, 09:06 AM
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Kelly, yes it does...however, in my case, I also still have 30 year old wiring in the ignition circuit that I need to eliminate (the original C-30 engine wiring harness, which is notorious for having problems), so I get about a full 1 volt of voltage drop along the route.

So, I am really mucking up the works. The crank voltage was low enough the other evening that it made my LED cabin light flicker while cranking.
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  #185   IP: 24.152.131.155
Old 11-18-2011, 09:09 AM
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Kelly,

That was not my experience. Prior to the addition of the resistor my engine always started within a second of cranking regardless of layoff time. After the resistor it did the same. I'm close to a full ohm less than Shawn hence my caution to him.
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  #186   IP: 72.83.115.32
Old 11-18-2011, 09:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelly View Post
...My thinking was to provide full battery volts to the coil during cranking by running a power wire from the starter. That way the direct connection to the battery is broken when you turn the ignition from "start" to "run".

Make sense?
Just make sure to use the right terminal on the starter!!! Not all starters have it!

If you simply wire it to the solenoid terminal, during normal running the coil's circuit will "back feed" through the resistor to the solenoid! It may even be enough to pull-in/hold-in the solenoid and cause the starter to keep cranking! Not good! You can destroy a starter that way, and the only to stop it once it happens is to disconnect the battery!

My starter has an extra terminal on it for just this purpose. While cranking, it is energized, but when not cranking it is completely isolated from BOTH the battery and the solenoid. In fact this usage is exactly what the terminal was designed for.

Some of us with electronic fuel pumps (myself included) have repurposed this terminal to bypass the Oil Pressure Safety Switch during cranking in order to get the fuel pump going right away while retaining the protection of the OPSS while running.
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  #187   IP: 76.7.137.196
Old 11-18-2011, 09:29 AM
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I have noticed no change in start time, 1 to 2 seconds, after adding the resistor. Re: post 136 and 174 for my #s. Dan S/V Marian Claire
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  #188   IP: 71.252.5.75
Old 04-15-2012, 08:21 PM
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Ok...so I fired up the boat this weekend and me and my lovely did a little shakedown/ harbor cruise. I am so OCD/AR/worried about this darn motor that I normally would have full sails rigged in the event the motor quit. I resisted that urge, and although I had sails aboard, I did not put the main on the boom, nor did I take the genoa out of its bag. I did check and make sure the anchor was ready to go in the event I had to keep from drifting into something!

The first part of this story is the engine harness re-wiring was a success. She fired right up and ran nicely at the dock. We took her down the creek to a friend's house and had some wine & cheese at their dock and then putzed around for 35-40 minutes.

So, here are the numbers I have...dirty bottom, prop last cleaned probably in late September if I recall...

5" vac at 1,900 RPM.

WOT right now is about 2,050...definitely a dirty bottom & some stuff on the prop, but after it sat all winter and to run this well in spring, I am tickled.

45 PSI oil

165°F average (raw) water temp

13.5 volts on the new meter.

Alternator output 14.15 volts

Coil voltage with a 1.3 Ω resistor in place = 11.2V - I had no trouble starting her with this resistor..I didn't bring the infrared thermometer or anything, but the engine ran absolutely flawlessly today.

Now, if I can just get off my lazy butt and clean out the water jacket and get the FWC installed.
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Last edited by sastanley; 08-01-2012 at 11:21 AM. Reason: typos!
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Old 04-15-2012, 08:26 PM
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  #189   IP: 71.181.37.6
Old 04-16-2012, 08:03 AM
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One item arises my curiosity. No one has mentioned the reactance, or AC
resistance of the coil, and what part this will play in the load and power
dissipation.
inductive reactance = xL =2 pi times f or frequeny times L Inductance of the coil . Or xL = 2 (3.14 ) f L

As RPM goes up, the AC resistance (reactance) goes up and dissipation
should therefore go down.

Just some thoughts

Regards
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  #190   IP: 199.173.226.236
Old 04-16-2012, 08:32 AM
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I think I did mention that Ohm's law is an approximation at best for what is really an inductive AC circuit. That said, a lot of empirical evidence and testing went into these calculations and the resistors seem to do the trick. I also decided thanks to this thread the next EI system I get will be CD and not use the coil to store energy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtJ View Post
One item arises my curiosity. No one has mentioned the reactance, or AC
resistance of the coil, and what part this will play in the load and power
dissipation.
inductive reactance = xL =2 pi times f or frequeny times L Inductance of the coil . Or xL = 2 (3.14 ) f L

As RPM goes up, the AC resistance (reactance) goes up and dissipation
should therefore go down.

Just some thoughts

Regards
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  #191   IP: 71.181.37.6
Old 04-16-2012, 08:50 AM
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Not disrespecting the empirical findings at all, but since you guys are looking at
a relatively small change in voltage drop to effect a large power dissipation, I would
expect it to certainly play a significant role

Best Regards.

PS the easiest way to perhaps see what's going on ac wise would be to put a
isolated scope across the coil dc inputs. Just trying to be helpful
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  #192   IP: 24.152.131.155
Old 04-16-2012, 09:24 AM
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If I may

Quote:
you guys are looking at a relatively small change in voltage drop to effect a large power dissipation
The voltage reduction although small in absolute value is significant considering we're only talking about a 12 volt system. A 2 volt drop equates to a 15% difference. Looking at the same 15% in a 120V household system you'd drop to 102 volts, pretty significant.

More important is the system amperage and the fact that before this exercise some of us were operating beyond the specified maximum, some were right on the edge.
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Last edited by ndutton; 04-20-2012 at 09:33 PM.
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  #193   IP: 108.23.219.10
Old 04-16-2012, 09:49 AM
Dave Neptune Dave Neptune is offline
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Lightbulb An FYI

Hey guys, I have been using an EI for years and have bragged of it's benifits. Although I'm not using the Pertroniz unit I have been following this thread. I bought my unit complete with coil and a new set of springs. It has woked flawllessly for many many years now. I decided to try a resistor in mine after reading about temp concerns to see if it made any changes at all. I did move the coil off the block too. Anyway I have about 10 hours running with the resistor and about 3 hours of that were at low RPM's and just over 7 hours at cruise. The engine has been started cold now about 6 times and I see no differance in the starting cycle at all. I do not and will not use a temp gun however I will report the coil does run somewhat cooler than before AND I am running the "EI box" on the reduced voltage side of the resistor as it is rated from 6 ~ 16 Vts and as stated no issues at all so far.

Dave Neptune
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  #194   IP: 24.152.131.155
Old 04-16-2012, 09:56 AM
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That's great info Dave. I can report as well that my engine is running noticeably smoother and quieter than ever, starts easily with the resistor in the system. The only recent change has been a further voltage reduction due to lower alternator output, another 0.7 volts lower putting my ignition amperage at 3.3 amps.
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Old 04-16-2012, 02:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ndutton View Post
The voltage reduction although small in absolute value is significant considering we're only talking about a 12 volt system. A 2 volt drop equates to a 15% difference. Looking at the same drop in a 120V household system you'd drop to 102 volts, pretty significant.

More important is the system amperage and the fact that before this exercise some of us were operating beyond the specified maximum, some were right on the edge.
So you guys should look at the ac impedance of the coil under load.
If you have the external resistor in the circuit you can determine
the ac current by hanging the scope across the ext. resistor, then knowing
the current, relocate the scope across the coil plus and minus .then measure
the ac voltage across the coil on the scope and determine the Z total =AC IMPEDANCE combined with the DC resistance.
(Do this by measuring the coil AC +DC voltage drop and divide by the AC +DC current measured across the external resistor).

Regards
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Old 04-16-2012, 05:24 PM
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Quote:
So you guys should look at the ac impedance of the coil under load.
The question arises, to what end? We've managed the current through the system and we've reduced the coil temperature to reasonable levels. Those who experienced failures and reported back have resolved their shut down problem. I hope I don't regret saying it but it doesn't get much better than that.

So what gain is expected by doing the oscilloscope measurements you're recommending?
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Old 04-16-2012, 05:38 PM
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You would know the actual true parameters leading to coil operation.

But that's up to you guys, I just posed the input. If it were me, having
gone as far as you guys went, I would want to know.

Regards
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Old 07-03-2012, 12:06 PM
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Thumbs up time for a follow up?

After tar34 linked back to this in another thread I went back to review it (again) - In case someone doesn't want to read thru all 8 pages I submit the following "synopsis" of my current configuration..

I've had continued great success with a $10 NAPA 1.82 Ω resistor in front of my 3.0 Ω Flamethrower coil, and no issues at all with a complete ignition circuit re-wire (edit - including new switch, thanks for the reminder Kelly!) as well.

I also do not have any lag in starting, and have thus far found it unnecessary to search for an "R" terminal on my starter to bypass the resistor during cranking.. I attribute this to both the good wiring, and the ability to completely close the choke which helps with the quick starts.

Kelly, how is your system doing since you opened the flood gates with this one?!?
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Last edited by sastanley; 08-01-2012 at 11:25 AM. Reason: man I love that omega character! :D
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Old 07-03-2012, 10:16 PM
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you guys are so knowledgeable that I hesitate to throw in my 2 cents.
But here it is:
I fried my Pertronix Flamethrower for the simple reason that I left the ignition on too long with the engine off.
I learned something, I did not know that could be harmful to the coil.

Jean-Luc
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Old 07-03-2012, 10:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtJ View Post
So you guys should look at the ac impedance of the coil under load.
If you have the external resistor in the circuit you can determine
the ac current by hanging the scope across the ext. resistor, then knowing
the current, relocate the scope across the coil plus and minus .then measure
the ac voltage across the coil on the scope and determine the Z total =AC IMPEDANCE combined with the DC resistance.
(Do this by measuring the coil AC +DC voltage drop and divide by the AC +DC current measured across the external resistor).

Regards
on top of that some resistors may have an inductive component making measurements even more complicated. I wonder if it would be easier to connect a true RMS multimeter in series and have it measure the AC current through the coil. I wonder if would it show both DC and AC current value combined?
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