Can you identify these parts (and other various questions)?

[ndutton]

Those four rods were mounting bolts for a manual bilge pump.

[LasVegasSailing]

JERRY!!!!

It IS Gabriel, on Bolero!!! Its because of you that I'm here stumbling my way through this vast amount of knowledge and making new friends, so thanks for leading me to this site!!

Having you come take a look would be great. I'm available on Thursday from 10am and On (and also all day Friday & Saturday) so just let me know what works with you and I'll meet you there.

Neil: thanks for solving the mystery.

John: Now that is an interesting thought.... on a calm day....I wonder could go wrong.... i mean, the mast should be able to handle the strain.

[thatch]

I'd gamble on Jerry's help any day.

[JOHN COOKSON]

LVSailing
Here's some thoughts for your consideration.

I would not expect penetrating to be very effective. Gravity will cause it to flow away from the fitting not down into it. The best bet would be to use penetrating oil and light tapping with a hammer on the fitting.

When you put this back together use a pipe thread compound. (AKA pipe dope) It will make the next removal a breeze. I use pipe dope on anything water related - threads, barbs, and even gaskets. I use something called TFE paste. ACE hardware has a house brand in a 1 ounce tube that works well.

TRUE GRIT

[Vermonstah]

Originally Posted by thatch

I'd gamble on Jerry's help any day.

Vegas,

With Jerry as your neighbor a few slips away, you are one lucky guy. I would wager that there is no one in your vicinity more knowledgeable about the A4 available to you at any price.

When you search this forum, you will find a multitude of pix of Jerry's A4 (which is pristine) along with his very helpful responses and guidance to guys like me that would simply be lost if not for this forum.

Welcome. You are in the right place, in more ways than you currently realize.

[LasVegasSailing]

Looks like my boat couldn't of broken down in a better place! Thanks for all the help guys... i'll keep the thread updated as things come along.

[roadnsky]

Uh oh...
That's a lot to live up to!
Thanks though for the kind comments.
We'll look things over this weekend and report back.

John-
I have seen the mast-tilt done on a 22 footer.
I'm not sure on this one (27 ft)

Gabriel-
I've sent you an email to get together...

[BunnyPlanet169]

Originally Posted by roadnsky

John-
I have seen the mast-tilt done on a 22 footer.
I'm not sure on this one (27 ft)

What's the tidal range on Lake Mead?

[roadnsky]

Originally Posted by BunnyPlanet169

What's the tidal range on Lake Mead?

Well in 50 years or so it might be low enough to change out the thru hull...

[Boat]

Originally Posted by marthur

Looks like you have a Catalina 27? We had one for years and sailed the bejeebers out of it. (Technically we still have it, we put it up for sale in Muskegon in December).

#1 looks like my autopilot electrical connection, which was at exactly that spot. We used a simrad tiller pilot.

I wouldn't worry about the smooth spots on the shaft, the packing rubs on the shaft when it seals so this is pretty normal. The build up looks like it is in front of the packing and can probably be cleaned up at your next haul, so is not a factor. I wouldn't worry unless the shaft is scored.

Welcome and enjoy!

+2 on the tiller pilot attachment

[BunnyPlanet169]

My town put in horizontal pilings next to the town dock so that commercial fisherman (and I assume any taxpayer) can tie up next to the pier and do some quick work on the low tide. Old school and really effective when you have 10' to work with.

[Al Schober]

Congrats Jeff,
You gave me my chuckle for today. Tidal range on Lake Mead (grin).

Just thinking - that's an old avatar. Perhaps it's time to change to one of me holding a wheel? Any thoughts?

[roadnsky]

Originally Posted by JOHN COOKSON

So it's just an idea.
Is it possible to heel the boat enough with a halyard from the mast head to a neighbor's slip to get at the through hull fitting?
Sure would beat the PITA trailer.

Anyone have thoughts on the load that would be put on the mast to do this?
I worry about putting that much strain at the mast head.

We're meeting up this weekend to look over Gabriel's issues and make a punch list to fix things up.

[BunnyPlanet169]

Here's an order of magnitude number based on Internet data and simple lever arms.

Catalina 27 displacement 6850, draft 4 feet. Length of mast maybe 34 feet above waterline, based on P=28 from sailboat data.

Let's just assume the 6850 is exactly at one end of a 4 foot lever, and the other lever is 34 feet long.

Theoretical force to balance the lever is (6850x4) / 34 = 805 pounds.

In practice, the shrouds take the tensile pull, and the mast is in compression. The risk is probably the mast column buckling, or the roof collapsing, or filling the boat with water cause you've pulled it sideways in the water....

(Note from Legal Dept: This is a bad idea, and the numbers are probably horribly wrong. Stunt driver on closed course. Do not attempt at home.)

[sastanley]

What is the difference between your proposed plan and sailing along at 30° of heel for a prolonged time?

As BP notes, at some point the compression on the mast goes down and the load on the shrouds goes up and the mast simply becomes a lever arm.

[JOHN COOKSON]

Originally Posted by BunnyPlanet169

Here's an order of magnitude number based on Internet data and simple lever arms.
Catalina 27 displacement 6850, draft 4 feet. Length of mast maybe 34 feet above waterline, based on P=28 from sailboat data.
Let's just assume the 6850 is exactly at one end of a 4 foot lever, and the other lever is 34 feet long.
Theoretical force to balance the lever is (6850x4) / 34 = 805 pounds.
In practice, the shrouds take the tensile pull, and the mast is in compression. The risk is probably the mast column buckling, or the roof collapsing, or filling the boat with water cause you've pulled it sideways in the water....
(Note from Legal Dept: This is a bad idea, and the numbers are probably horribly wrong. Stunt driver on closed course. Do not attempt at home.)

It is not only the weight; the displacement is a factor also. As we all know a sail boat becomes more stable as it heels because of the (generally speaking) wine glass shaped hull. This built in built in characteristic of the hull would have to be over come. Naturally a hard chined boat should be easier to heel than a soft chined boat. Or maybe I have that backwards?
The other thing to consider is the forces on the mast are at a different angle than the design angle ie sails full of wind. Would the rigging be able to handle it? I don't know. Shawn's picture of weights off the mast head was interesting.

TRUE GRIT

[TomG]

Originally Posted by BunnyPlanet169

Here's an order of magnitude number based on Internet data and simple lever arms.

Catalina 27 displacement 6850, draft 4 feet. Length of mast maybe 34 feet above waterline, based on P=28 from sailboat data.

Let's just assume the 6850 is exactly at one end of a 4 foot lever, and the other lever is 34 feet long.

Theoretical force to balance the lever is (6850x4) / 34 = 805 pounds.

In practice, the shrouds take the tensile pull, and the mast is in compression. The risk is probably the mast column buckling, or the roof collapsing, or filling the boat with water cause you've pulled it sideways in the water....

(Note from Legal Dept: This is a bad idea, and the numbers are probably horribly wrong. Stunt driver on closed course. Do not attempt at home.)

The problem is a little more complex than that, but the balance number is what's important. The issue is that using a simple lever, where the force, fulcrum, and work stay in the same place, this equation works. The problem with boats is, the fulcrum stays in the the same (the Center of Gravity) but the work (Center of Buoyancy) moves away from the CG as the boat heels (up to the point of capsize). It takes exponentially more effort to heel the boat the further the CB moves from CG (the "righting moment"). My point is, as Bunny mentions, the force to "balance the lever" is 805 pounds. That is essentially heeling the boat ninety degrees. My guess is the number to heel the boat 30 degrees is exponentially less.

Changing a thruhull while the boat is in the water - I'm not a fan of that. I understand the limitations facing LVS, so heeling the boat is a pretty clever idea to deal with this challenge.

[BunnyPlanet169]

I tried to make it clear that my numbers were theoretical maximums based only on lever arm moments - it gives you an idea of the forces involved, not the actual number. Put it this way, the number isn't 80 pounds, or 8000 pounds but somewhere less than 800.

The full weight of displacement isn't at the end of a 4 foot arm, and the number will be less no doubt, especially at reduced angles of heel.

Of course it's more complicated, and each boat has a stability curve based on hull geometry and displacement. I couldn't quickly find a Catalina 27, but here's an example...

[ndutton]

If it turns out you're uncomfortable keeling the boat over, there's another method to reach the goal. With this type of thru-hull and valve installation (as opposed to a proper through bolted seacock) it involves a diver, a toilet plunger and a Dutch Boy inside the boat to stem the tide. I've never done it but I've seen it done, pretty slick.

With DB on the inside and the diver on the outside the existing thru-hull is plugged from the outside and it and the valve are removed. The plunger is placed over the hole from the outside to stop the flow. The new thru-hull is plugged internally, pre-caulked, placed into the hole from the outside and held in place with a flat iron against the internal nibs. The DB places the doughnut and locknut and tightens, the plug is removed and the plunger put in place again. For valve installation, the thru-hull is held from moving by vice grips on the threads from inside the boat (yeah, you'll burr them a little but the locknut is already on). Once the valve and tail piece are installed and all torquing of the thru-hull is complete the plunger is removed. Be sure to close the valve.

The diver and Dutch Boy communicate via simple taps. Each step is choreographed in advance and two taps on the hull signals, "My part is finished." Example: the diver places the new thru-hull into the hole, the DB places the caulked doughnut and tightens the locknut and when complete he taps the hull twice so the diver knows to remove the flat iron and plug and then put the plunger in place. Once the plunger is in place, the diver taps the hull twice.

[Dave Neptune]

I have done "keeling" on a few boats in the years past. One was an Islander 37 kit boat which was the biggest in a slip.

To greatly reduce the loads on parts it is wise to anchor the side you pull down by running the lines UNDER the hull. This holds the boat in place and does not strain the cleats nearly as bad as attempting with the opposite side by trying to roll the boat under the lines. It's about leverage and if you mast will sail you can easily "keel her over". What is amazing is that a couple of drums or trash cans full of water will hold her in place.

Attach the lines to the same side you wish to roll on and run them under the hull and back to the dock cleats on the opposite side. Just pull down the mast and go to work. Done this in many slips over the years.

Remember the load on the mast under sail is constantly varying due to the wind and waves back and forth up and down and side to side while absorbing the power of the sails ~~ a far bigger load!!!!!

Dave Neptune

[roadnsky]

Neil-
THAT would be an exciting operation.
Sounds feasible though.

My plan for the moment (could change once I actually see it) is to simply change out the valve on the thru hull.
It'll be a temp fix that will last until Gabriel can "haul out" which he intends to do in the Fall.
At that time, we can do the whole deal.

I did the same on my boat to replace original gate valves while in the water.
(see pics)

The hardest part (other than diving into 50° water!) will be breaking loose that old valve without damaging or dis-lodging the thru hull.
At minimum, we'll get a bung solidly into the thru hull to avoid a sinking.

[roadnsky]

Hey Guys-
I thought I'd add an update post to this thread to at least give it some resolve...

I met up with Gabriel the morning I was leaving for an extended sailing trip.
It meant that I had limited time to help him and then would be gone at least 2 weeks so he'd have to resolve things on his own when I left.

First thing right off the bat, we got his thru hull sorted.
It wasn’t quite as bad as I expected.
The valve IS shot but workable for some time until he can get a new one installed.
The thru hull was clogged with algae and mussels. That was the reason for no water flow.
We reamed it out and cleaned it and he has good water flow now.
To Gab's credit, he wanted to do the wet work, so I loaned him my wetsuit and mask and he jumped in.
That water is pretty cold still.

The other real issue is the water pump. It needs to be rebuilt.
I had a spare that I was willing to loan him but we couldn’t get the water pump off. Both bolts were really corroded and rounded heads.
Especially, that dreaded lower bolt. It's totally round and welded in there.

We started his engine up and I gave it a listen since he had a pretty bad overheat when all of this happened.
Engine sounded fine.

Unfortunately, that's where we had to leave things.
I've been gone almost 3 weeks and frankly, I'd hoped that Gabriel would have posted an update by now.
Oh well, life can get busy for the young.

One last comment...
Man, looking at that boat I realized just how ridiculous that C27 engine access is! I mean it's really, really tight!
I feel for you other C27 guys.

If I owned one, I'd be in that Port Lazarette with a sawzall on the first day!

[nreeves]

I have a 1978 Catalina 27 and redid all my through hulls. If they were like mine, it was coper pipe welded in to the full and flush on the outside. This actually made it much easier to replace (out of the water that is). I used a hole saw to the width of my replacement through hulls which is larger than the pipe welded to the hull. I was able to drill all three in a half hour. Once this is done, the rest is quite simple.

I made new mounting plates, laminated them to the hull and installed the new through hulls. I will try and dig up pictures as this as a couple of years ago.

[lat 64]

Arrrrgh!

It time for some pedantic floggin' from the semantic poopdeck you scallawags!!
It's "keeling" what you does when you eats too much bad sushi!

It's careening when you go tipsy-over and caulk the devil and garboards.

Twenty lashes all around! No grog for the crew and maggotty gruel for yo suppa!

[ndutton]

Y'know Russ, something bugged me when I typed it but I couldn't put my finger on what. Thanks for the clarification - and education.