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Old 11-27-2011, 04:10 PM
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This Can't Be Good...

Rebuilt engine last year. 2 weeks ago I tuned up engine and it ran great. During tune up I found very very fine metal shavings/filings on the inside of the distributor cap. Cleaned it and put on new cap, points, condenser and rotor. Ran super good.

This weekend I had a sudden and rapid shut down with some shaking and some backfiring. Checked timing and it seemed OK. Pulled fuel lines and the new mechanical fuel pump is not sucking gas to carb.

Additionally when I sprayed starting fluid into the carb I got nothing. It just cranks. I have good spark at the coil and at the spark plugs. BUT...when I started moving the distributor around trying to retard and advance the timing (at different settings) I am getting a strange knocking sound. SEATOW skipper and wife said it sounded like a backfire coming out of the exhaust. I heard it but typically a backfire comes from the carb area...this sounded like it was internal. The main thing is that the engine absolutely would not fire up even using starting fluid which is really strange.

Since the camshaft runs the fuel pump and the timing I am having a bad feeling that this may be related to the distributer (shavings/filings). I am guessing that some slop has been occurring in the distributor shaft causing the rotor to scrape some fine metal filings off of the contacts.

Has anyone run into a similar situation? I cannot find a similar thread. I am hoping it is only the fuel pump....here are my thoughts on troubleshooting:

1. The fuel pump has failed and needs to be replaced
2. The distributor has gone bad and needs to be replaced
3. The camshaft has crapped out and a major repair is needed

OK guys...please put on your thinking caps on this one. I just spent over $2500 last year rebuilding. I did not replace the distributor at that time. The fuel pump and sediment bowl were changed out just after the rebuild. Any advice/experience you may have will certainly be looked at and appreciated!

Mike

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Old 11-27-2011, 04:18 PM
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Maybe the springs on the centrifugal timing advance broke? Take out the plate that holds the points in the distributor and check underneath.

Also check your compression on each cylinder, maybe a broken valve spring?
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Old 11-27-2011, 07:23 PM
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I second the suggestion to take a good, hard look at the advance mechanism in your distributor. If you found some metal shavings in there, it sounds like something self-destructed under the cap.

Also take a good look at the rotor and up under the cap - make sure all the contacts look good.
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Old 11-27-2011, 09:19 PM
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Also agree the problem is spark. I like using the spray to get a quick diagnosis of fuel vs spark. A compression check is quick and easy to verify the third leg of the tripod is still there!
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Old 11-27-2011, 09:55 PM
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Failed oil pressure sensor causing fuel pump to shut off?
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Old 11-27-2011, 10:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CalebD View Post
Failed oil pressure sensor causing fuel pump to shut off?
I think he said he has a mechanical fuel pump, so I think the OPSS isn't an issue here.

That your SeaTow folks said it sounded like it was "backfiring" out of the exhaust makes me think the spark is occuring well late in the sequence, i.e. the spark is happening just as the exhaust valve is opening. This would support Loki and Rust's assertion of a possible timing issue, related to the centrifugal advance or distributor.
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Old 11-27-2011, 10:59 PM
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Mike , I'll go with number 2. Before pulling the distributor bring it around to number 1 firing position. That way when you go back with a "new distributor" it will make it a lot easier and less prone to a screw-up. Also doing it this way will let you see if the cam is indeed turning. Don't be too concerned about the backfire, spraying starting fluid in a hot engine will ignite without spark , that is why they warn against it.

Last edited by Carl-T705; 11-27-2011 at 11:06 PM.
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Old 11-28-2011, 03:55 AM
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I had the "metal shaving" problem last year (I think what you are finding is a fine mist of graphite from the rotor contacts) and after replacing the distributor the problem went away. This fine layer of graphite causes short circuits inside the distributor cap, so you will experience poor (or no) running conditions unless you wipe it out.

Don and Ken did not think a distributor could get "wobbly" and go bad that way but apparently in my case it did.

-Jonathan
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Old 11-28-2011, 05:31 AM
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Thanks everyone. I will not be able to look at the engine until Friday. After thinking about your comments I am pretty sure the issue is a distributer failure of some sort. Mainly as the timing seemed to go haywire instantly.

Any other thoughts are welcome!

I will check Friday to see what is going on here...


Mike
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Old 11-28-2011, 08:25 AM
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How did you check for fuel flow, cranking or using the hand primer? If it pumps by hand but not by cranking that could point to some internal problem. Have you tried the thumb/compression test? If something has snapped internally would you have 0 or very low compression??? This is on the edge of my knowledge so if I am wrong with this let me know. Dan S/V Marian Claire

Last edited by Marian Claire; 11-28-2011 at 08:51 AM.
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Old 11-28-2011, 09:13 PM
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Marian Claire: I pulled the fuel line to the sediment bowl and later pulled the copper tube running between the fuel pump and carb. Gas was not being sucked up by the fuel pump but when I spun the engine I saw that the fuel pump was actually pumping out (what little gas was left in the fuel pump). I have plenty of gas in the fuel tank.

I did not have time to check for compression but at this time I am fairly sure I have compression due to the "backfire" noise that the SeaTow skipper noted. I believe this is a build up of internal pressure that is being expelled.

However I will be checking this Friday and I will definitely spin the engine and do a quick compression check.

I am hoping this is only a distributor change out and not a damaged camshaft. I will know more once I can pull the distributor and look at the gears at the base of distributor shaft...keeping my fingers crossed.

Mike
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Old 11-28-2011, 09:51 PM
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I am still betting it's something inside the distributor. I bet you won't even have to pull and replace the distributor - maybe just replace a few of the components. Don't go pulling the distro out until you take a good look at what's going on under the cap. Look carefully at the underside of the cap, the rotor, the points, the mounting plate, and then the advance mechanism.
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Old 11-28-2011, 10:27 PM
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Bill's right

Don't go pulling that distibutor just yet and if you decide to pull it. Make sure your engine is at TDC first and confirm that the rotor is pointing directly away from the block. Check your plug wires as well for proper routing.

So you did a tune up and it ran super good and then suddenly this past weekend it was backfiring/ stalling and your new fuel pump wasn't sending fuel to your carb?

Solve or confirm you have proper spark at the proper time. Engine at TDC, rotor @ 9:00 o'clock pointing away from block. Spark plug wires properly routed. Confirm good spark. If you have all that THEN start looking at your fuel system.
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Old 11-29-2011, 08:20 AM
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Mike thanks for the info. I am not discounting the timing/distributor possibility. Your test with starting fluid sure point to a no spark, timing or no compression issue. But if you are not getting fuel we also need to know why. Plugged pickup, clogged filter, closed valve, bad squeeze bulb??? Warning: I have the electric pump so I am not that familiar with the mechanical pump. I think the fact that the pump is moving during cranking is good but I would still try to manually work the pump. A simple and quick test but you can test things in the order you see fit. Was the raw water intake closed during all this cranking? Is it possible the plugs got flooded with water after the shut down? Dan S/V Marian Claire
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Old 11-29-2011, 08:13 PM
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All good advice. I am definitely going to give the distributor a good once over before I pull it and I appreciate the reminders about the position of the rotor, etc. I will be marking and at TDC.

BUT...with the fine metal filings (it looks like silver powder) floating around in the distributor cap I am still inclined to think I have wobble in the distributor shaft. I am going to first vacuum all of that out and really clean it good. Reset the cap, etc. and see if I can get it to kick off. If she runs I will feel much better. If I get nothing then I will pull to see if the distributor gears have sheared or broken and see if it has jumped the timing. That fine metal powder may have set off a mini electrical "storm" inside of the cap!

As to the mechanical fuel pump it is activated by a small push bar that hits one of the cams that causes the pump to work. It is a very good sign to me that it was showing pumping action as I feel the camshaft may be OK. But I simply will not know until I pull (or have to pull) the distributor.

I closed the seacock once it spun a few times without kicking over. There should not be any water in the block as I know not to do that!

Thanks again everyone for the advice. It really is appreciated. Here's hoping for a simple fix!

Mike

Last edited by mike7a10; 11-29-2011 at 08:17 PM. Reason: Forgot something
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Old 11-29-2011, 09:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mike7a10 View Post
If I get nothing then I will pull to see if the distributor gears have sheared or broken and see if it has jumped the timing.
I would be very surprised if the spriral gears somehow broke or jumped like that - it seems to me it would take quite a lot of force to do that, and I'm trying to envision what could cause such a thing to happen.
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Old 11-30-2011, 06:19 AM
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I will be surprised too if the gears are broken! But when I rebuilt this 35 year old engine there were only 2 items I did not replace...the distributor and the starter.

The only thing I can think of why (and hopefully it is not the gears!) the gear may break is age or that compounded with some type of wobble in the shaft (metal shavings).

There is a post in this thread from jhwelch who confirms my suspicions about the metal shavings. He had the same symptoms and when he replaced the distributor he didn't have any further issues.

Well, I will know more on Friday. Thanks again everyone! I appreciate all the help! Just when you think you have the A4 figured out this kind of thing happens...

Mike
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Old 11-30-2011, 11:39 AM
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In my general engine experience, metallic or silvery dust inside the distributor cap usually came from the spring-loaded graphite contact in the center of the cap that transfers the spark voltage to the rotor. Any slight roughness or corrosion on the contact point on the rotor will start eating up the contact on the cap, as the connection is in constant motion as the rotor turns.

Sometimes a new rotor will cure it, but it's usually best to replace the rotor and cap together.
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Old 11-30-2011, 02:17 PM
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Thanks edwardc! Seems to make sense to me. I will be looking closely.

Mike
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Old 12-03-2011, 06:20 AM
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Update

I pulled the distributor cap. Cleaned it thoroughly. Pulled out the plate holding the points/condensor and pulled out and cleaned the advance cams as they had a some rust. Put it all together and nothing.

Checked all wires, position of the wires on the distributer cap. I changed the distributor cap as I had a spare. Rechecked all wires and they seem good. Nothing. (BTW the rotor is spinning fine and lines up OK at TDC...so I don't think my distributor has lost a tooth on the gear, etc. as I had feared.)

I cleaned all the terminal connections running to the coil. Nothing.

The use of ether gives me backfires especially when the timing is advanced which seems to indicate to me that this is strictly a timing issue.

How can the timing become so messed up when it ran for about 19 hours smoothly after the recent tune up? The engine had been run for about 15 hours on a recent 4 day (motor) sailing trip over Veteran's Day weekend. We took another 4 day trip for Thanksgiving...about 3-4 hours of run time. I was idling the engine each evening for about 45-60 minutes to top up the batteries and take the chill off of the water in the hot water heater tank. On the 3rd afternoon it started up as usual, ran for a few minutes and then had a funky shut down like it ran out of fuel. Restarted and it ran again for about 10 seconds continually dying and ending with what sounded like a backfire.

So how does an engine that is running great suddenly experience a wierd timing problem? I am thinking that one of the components in the tune up has failed.

I will pull each spark plug today and make sure I have good spark at every cylinder...maybe a bad plug wire? I am also going to run a compression check just for giggles on each cylinder today as well.

I am going to get new points, condensor, cap and rotor today. I have read that if the condensor fails this type of thing can happen.

If this doesn't fix the problem I will have to pull the distributor to see if there is any damage I can see. Bill Moyer once wrote in a thread that if the insulating ring that holds the distributor fails this can cause a direct ground short.

I have another thought. Bill also wrote in another thread that if the exhaust becomes restricted the engine will not run (you know, the potato in the exhaust pipe thing). I got stuck on a sandbar for a little while on the most recent trip and 2 days before the shut down. I wonder if I could have sucked up something into the cooling system that is now restricting the exhaust or the cooling system? It sounds like the exhaust is OK based on the backfire noise I hear coming from it. Seems to me though that if I had sucked something up it would not have run for about 2 hours until it became restricted.

The battle continues...
Mike

Last edited by mike7a10; 12-03-2011 at 06:28 AM.
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Old 12-03-2011, 07:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mike7a10 View Post
I pulled the distributor cap. Cleaned it thoroughly. Pulled out the plate holding the points/condensor and pulled out and cleaned the advance cams as they had a some rust. Put it all together and nothing.
Did you check the points themselves, to be sure they were good and clean? Maybe try replacing the points/condenser? Possible it's gone bad?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mike7a10 View Post
How can the timing become so messed up when it ran for about 19 hours smoothly after the recent tune up?
Did you make sure the distributor clamp is locked down so it can't rotate? Is it possible it's moved and you're not rotating it far enough back to where it's supposed to be?


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Originally Posted by mike7a10 View Post
I will pull each spark plug today and make sure I have good spark at every cylinder
Good idea, I think. Maybe a failed coil?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mike7a10 View Post
I am going to get new points, condensor, cap and rotor today. I have read that if the condensor fails this type of thing can happen.
Yes. Good idea.

Good luck! We're all rootin' fer ya...
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Old 12-03-2011, 08:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mike7a10 View Post
I have another thought. Bill also wrote in another thread that if the exhaust becomes restricted the engine will not run (you know, the potato in the exhaust pipe thing). I got stuck on a sandbar for a little while on the most recent trip and 2 days before the shut down. I wonder if I could have sucked up something into the cooling system that is now restricting the exhaust or the cooling system? It sounds like the exhaust is OK based on the backfire noise I hear coming from it. Seems to me though that if I had sucked something up it would not have run for about 2 hours until it became restricted.
Do you have a waterlift muffler?

Just thinking out loud here, so bear with me. When you were stuck on the sandbar, did you try to power off? I've seen a LOT of sand kicked up when trying to power off. As long as the water is kept in motion, the sand stays in suspension. Once the water stops moving, the sand settles to the bottom. Most waterlift mufflers have an input pipe that is a different height off the bottom of the waterlift than the discharge pipe (typically a few inches higher).

I know this is a long-shot, but I'm just wondering if the waterlift has partially filled up with fine, Charlotte Harbor sand?

How difficult is it to check your waterlift or start the motor with the exhaust disconnected?

Keep at it Mike. I know this is a frustrating problem, but I know you'll figure it out.
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Old 12-03-2011, 09:18 AM
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TomG: That is exactly what I am thinking...I did power off eventually on a rising tide and I am sure that I sucked up sand and silt out of Charlotte Harbor (you know the area).

I have decided today that rather than keep tinkering with the electronics (as they seek OK to me) and I going to pull the exhaust system apart. I do have a waterlift muffler and I remembered this morning that when the engine initally shut down I had my wife spin the engine a few times and I heard a clunking sound at the manifold. I have not heard it since. So I can't help but wonder if there is an obstruction at the manifold/exhaust connection or if the waterlift has become obstructed.

I think we may be on to something here. Should be a fun morning pulling the exhaust system apart!

Here is a picture of the exhaust system and the vernalift to the far right. Sorry for the size of the picture but I can't figure out how to make if smaller and fit properly.

Keep your fingers and toes crossed. Thank you for your insight!

Mike
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Last edited by mike7a10; 12-03-2011 at 09:32 AM.
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Old 12-03-2011, 09:43 AM
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I may have missed it but was fuel flow to the carb ever confirmed. I just wonder if the use of SF is a good way to test things. How are you using the SF? What exactly is the engine doing? Just backfiring as you crank and spray in SF. A single shot of SF then crank. Running for 2 seconds and then backfiring.
My experience with SF is limited. It just seems like testing with the fuel the A-4 was meant to burn would give better clues as to the problem. Dan S/V Marian Claire

Last edited by Marian Claire; 12-03-2011 at 09:46 AM.
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Old 12-03-2011, 11:22 AM
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I think the fact that it doesnt run for a couple of seconds on the starting fluid seems to indicate that the problem is not in the fuel system.

I know it shouldn't be possible if you haven't removed the distributor, but your description of the behavior sounds a lot like what happens when you get the distributor lined up on TDC of the exhaust stroke instead of the compression stroke. The spark ignites the mix while the exhaust valve is still open, and you get a "woof" or "bang" out the exhaust.

It's unlikely that that the distributor's spiral gear has lost teeth or "jumped", but is it possible that the key or pin that secures the gear to the distributor shaft has sheared or come out and allowed the gear to slip?
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