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Old 04-19-2016, 09:23 PM
SoMD Terp SoMD Terp is offline
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Fuel System Troubleshooting

Last summer I purchased a 1979 Catalina 30, so this is my first spring getting an Atomic 4 ready. The engine worked great last season, except for just before winterizing. I was unable to get the engine to start and chalked it up to the gas sitting for a few weeks between uses (should have investigated further). So at the start of this season I started by looking at the fuel and fuel system. I can confirm that fuel makes it from the tank into the fuel filter (Racor 110). I went to drain the carb and it was bone dry. I tried pushing gas to the carb by using the primer on the mechanical fuel pump, which did nothing. I drained the sediment bowl in the pump (clean) and since have not been able to get any fuel to make it into the bowl.

Right now I am assuming that I need to rebuild the fuel pump (or replace with electric) and rebuild the carb. The lines are pretty stuck on, so I will likely replace a few of those as well. Before going that far, does anyone have any other suggestions? Any help is appreciated.

I was hoping to get out this weekend, but I'm pretty sure that is no longer in the cards...
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Old 04-20-2016, 07:26 AM
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When attempting to remove the fuel lines, grab them at the barb with pliers and rotate them to break the seal *before* pulling. (After loosening the hose clamps, of course)

You might consider upgrading to an electric, Facet fuel pump.
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Old 04-20-2016, 07:59 AM
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While you're working through this look for common known problems:
  • Replace all fuel hoses with A1-15 alcohol rated hose. If this has not been done previously the ethanol component will dissolve and damage the original non-rated hoses. Removal of the old hoses from the barbs will likely damage them anyway so replacement resolves that too.
  • On the chance there is a mechanical pump diaphragm failure (possible from your symptom set), pull the crankcase dipstick to check for a high oil level and the smell of gasoline. By design, when the mechanical pump diaphragm fails, errant gasoline is pumped into the crankcase as a safety measure. If this turns out to be the case you'll have a crankcase to clean up too.
  • Open the fuel fill deck plate while trying to manually pump fuel. If this helps, the fuel tank vent is suspect.
  • A good diagnostic tool is to try and run the engine with a temporary outboard type tank with fresh fuel connected directly to the fuel pump intake. This test will determine if the problem is before (as in tank and filtration) or after (as in pump and carb) the fuel pump so you can focus your efforts where the problem actually lies.
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prior boats 1987 Westsail 32, 1970 Catalina 22
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Old 04-20-2016, 09:35 PM
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SoMD Terp,

First, welcome to the forum!!
Where is the boat? I am in the area. I have my own C-30 to deal with but I never mind helping a fellow sailor out if I can make the time. I have a spare mech fuel pump we can bolt on to test/troubleshoot with, if we can't get yours working.

It takes a LOT of pumps on that little priming lever to pull fuel from the C-30 tank.

Neil already covered the diaphragm breach.

edit - another trick with the priming lever is that if the little cam that moves the pump diaphragm is fully extended, you won't be able to move the diaphragm with the lever...it is just pushing and pulling against nothing. Try bumping the starter (or turn the engine by hand with a hand crank if you have flywheel access) to turn the motor over for a split second and see if you get any different feel with the priming lever.

One suggestion is to simplify the system while trying to get it running & remove the big Racor from the loop for now, and trust a smaller inline filter to grab all the crap while you are troubleshooting.

By the way, Drury's Marina on St. Jerome's Creek in Ridge sells ethanol free gas...I shlep about 50 gallons a year from there in jerry cans for the boat and small motors around the house and have NEVER had a fuel problem since switching to them for my boat fuel. It is about a 25 minute drive from Great Mills, and they have big dock carts for lugging the jerry cans down the dock!
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Last edited by sastanley; 04-20-2016 at 09:47 PM. Reason: shoulda read Neil's post first.
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Old 04-28-2016, 11:53 AM
SoMD Terp SoMD Terp is offline
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Ajax, ndutton, sastanley,

Thanks for the responses. Based on what I have done and your suggestions, here is my plan forward:

1. Replace line from filter to pump.
2. Replace existing mechanical pump with an electric one.
3. Drain remaining iffy gas from the tank

I am looking for advice on 2 things:

1. Which electric pump should I get? Looking at the options through Moyer Marine there is the Facet pump (and associated hardware to buy) or the complete setup they advertise. Any advantages/disadvantages to these 2? Any others to consider?

2. Should I also rebuild the carb? Since this was all likely caused by stale gas, it stands to reason that the carb may need some work as well. I'm not completely sure, since fuel hasn't been getting to the carb. It may just be lucky and never got any of the stale gas. Thoughts?
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Old 04-28-2016, 12:58 PM
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Quote:
1. Which electric pump should I get? Looking at the options through Moyer Marine there is the Facet pump (and associated hardware to buy) or the complete setup they advertise. Any advantages/disadvantages to these 2? Any others to consider?
Neither! The mechanical pump rebuild kit is very cost effective and easy to install. There is virtually no difference in the long term reliability of the two different style pumps. Both work just as well. The effort to convert is probably greater than the effort required to rebuild.

If you must go electric, you might as well buy the kit with the higher pressure fuel pump.

Quote:
2. Should I also rebuild the carb? Since this was all likely caused by stale gas, it stands to reason that the carb may need some work as well. I'm not completely sure, since fuel hasn't been getting to the carb. It may just be lucky and never got any of the stale gas. Thoughts?
To get the motor running, I would definitely open up the carb and clean it. I like to renew the main bowl gasket every time I open it up, but it is often not necessary to replace the jets and nozzles. The jets and nozzles are sometimes hard to remove and the rebuild kit does cost $86.86, so I don't do a complete rebuild unless it is necessary. Once you have the engine running, you will be able to better assess the need to rebuild.
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Old 04-28-2016, 01:12 PM
JOHN COOKSON JOHN COOKSON is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoMD Terp View Post
I am looking for advice on 2 things:
1. Which electric pump should I get? Looking at the options through Moyer Marine there is the Facet pump (and associated hardware to buy) or the complete setup they advertise. Any advantages/disadvantages to these 2? Any others to consider?
2. Should I also rebuild the carb? Since this was all likely caused by stale gas, it stands to reason that the carb may need some work as well. I'm not completely sure, since fuel hasn't been getting to the carb. It may just be lucky and never got any of the stale gas. Thoughts?
You have the projects in the correct order. Be sure you are getting fuel to the carb before you rebuild the carb. This means catch the output from the fuel pump in a container. You might be pleasantly surprised. Then again......
I think you are on to this but you didn't explicitly say it in your post.
Usually these low compression 4 bangers will run on old gas. The bigger problem is KRAP in the fuel that raises hell in the carb. You might consider using STABIL or a fuel additive once you get it running.

TRUE GRIT
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Old 04-30-2016, 06:31 PM
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I agree with marthur on the fuel pump..I like my mechanical pump. Adding electric requires incorporating additional electrical work an complications (oil pressure safety switch, OPSS).

I also agree with Mike & John that I would pull the carb apart and make sure there is no gunk in the carb and clean the jets with carb cleaner...ethanol gas that sits for a while likes to turn into lemon jello in the carb.

You are gonna have to clean EVERYTHING upstream..the carb is the 'weak' link, as any junk that makes it there will possibly clog that tiny carb jet. John's suggestion to pump some fuel into a container from the last fuel hose before it goes in the carb is a great idea..flush/observe/confirm there is no junk in the fuel to clog the carb.
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Last edited by sastanley; 04-30-2016 at 06:35 PM.
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Old 05-10-2016, 10:21 PM
SoMD Terp SoMD Terp is offline
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UPDATE: I rebuilt the fuel pump and it seems to be functioning (at least when it comes to pumping air). I managed to reinstall the pump, but I was still unable to bring the engine to life. Fuel still does not seem to be making it to the pump, so I have a new theory.

On my Racor filter there is a vent plug that is removed when you want to drain the bowl. When I torque the plug back in it does not seal; instead, it continues to spin. I also noticed some gas on the plug and dripping out of the port. Is it possible that the filter system is not properly sealing, allowing air in and preventing fuel from flowing out of the filter?

The previous owner seems to have left me one of the in-line filters. Is it worth trying that at this point? I think I have enough hose slack to accomplish it, but I will likely need to reorder a few feet of hose to the tank if the current setup is insufficient.

Thoughts?
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Old 05-11-2016, 01:30 AM
JOHN COOKSON JOHN COOKSON is offline
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Have you tried blowing back into the tank and listening for bubbles in the fuel?
I don't like the dripping fuel. If something in the boats fuel system isn't right get it fixed and we will go from there.

TRUE GRIT
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Old 05-11-2016, 10:57 AM
Dave Neptune Dave Neptune is offline
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SoMD, if there is any sort of compromise on something sealing (your drain plug) just the tiniest bit ANYWHERE UPSTREAM of the pump you will have big problems. Ditch the old filter if it can't be sealed and your troubles getting furl to the pump will abate.

Dave Neptune
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Old 05-11-2016, 02:12 PM
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If it is a Racor with some type of valve or something, it is probably not USCG compliant for an inboard gasoline boat.

It should have a metal drain bowl and a metal screw-in plug/bolt in the bottom that's it...like this one pulled from the Moyer on-line catalog..how does Stephen & the marketing crew get all the products to float in mid-air??

The model is RACOR 320R-RAC-02..and more info is available here..note the fine print under "Features"... http://ph.parker.com/us/17583/en/mar...on/320r-rac-02

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Last edited by sastanley; 05-11-2016 at 02:17 PM. Reason: Add link to Racor's site
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Old 05-11-2016, 03:20 PM
SoMD Terp SoMD Terp is offline
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I just want to clarify on the filter:

1. It is a Racor model 110.

2. I am not talking about the drain plug on the bottom of the bowl. There is a plastic (or composite) screw-in plug near the top on the front for the vent port. You are supposed to remove that plug before draining the bowl (allow air into gravity feed the drain port on the bottom). That plug does not screw tight and there is some residual fuel on the plug and in the port when removed.
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Old 05-12-2016, 10:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoMD Terp View Post
UPDATE: I rebuilt the fuel pump and it seems to be functioning (at least when it comes to pumping air). I managed to reinstall the pump, but I was still unable to bring the engine to life. Fuel still does not seem to be making it to the pump, so I have a new theory.

On my Racor filter there is a vent plug that is removed when you want to drain the bowl. When I torque the plug back in it does not seal; instead, it continues to spin. I also noticed some gas on the plug and dripping out of the port. Is it possible that the filter system is not properly sealing, allowing air in and preventing fuel from flowing out of the filter?

The previous owner seems to have left me one of the in-line filters. Is it worth trying that at this point? I think I have enough hose slack to accomplish it, but I will likely need to reorder a few feet of hose to the tank if the current setup is insufficient.
Ah, OK..I did some research on the 110, and it in fact does have extra ports at the top!

http://ph.parker.com/us/17583/en/hig...ater-separator

If it was me, I'd eliminate that faulty plug, and put a brass NPT plug in there..looks like they are 1/4" x 18 NPTF according to the site. This latest report with the clarification of filter type adds evidence to your theory. The funny things P.O.s do!?! - You can get one right down the street at Dyson's on Rt. 5!

One problem with 'changing' things is that if the problem goes away, did the new part fix the problem, or did elimination of the old part fix the problem?? I would not introduce new parts (inline filter) into the equation at this time...I would continue to work on this filter issue and try to solve it. A new plug will seal the hole and fix the leak. Incidentally, it may take several minutes with the little mech handle to prime. You may consider filling the bowl on the filter with fuel to assist the pump. This may introduce air pockets in the fuel system, but if/when you get the motor running, the pump will suck those thru pretty quickly.

Now, all that blabbering aside, many of us run two filters..I have the 'other' Racor (the 320) and I have the little inline "polishing" filter that Moyer sells just before the carb. Once you get the engine running, I might suggest adding that other filter, provided it is the same or smaller micron rating of the Racor 110. There is not much sense in installing a larger micron rated filter downstream.

What's the story with the condition of the fuel? I personally run ethanol free gas only, but some guys around here burn all kinds of junk in their motors just fine!
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"Holiday" - '89 Alura 35 #109
"Twice Around" - '77 C-30, #511 with original A-4 & MMI manifold - SOLD! (no longer a two boat owner!!)
http://www.moyermarine.com/forums/signaturepics/sigpic3231_6.gif

Last edited by sastanley; 05-12-2016 at 10:39 AM. Reason: blah blah blah
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Old 05-20-2016, 08:49 AM
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Just to update everyone, I was able to get the boat running. I think it was a confluence of different things, but ultimately I have figured out that the gas tank vent line is clogged. Opening the gas cap while starting brings the engine to life. Now I will have to find the clog in the line to fix the problem for good. If there are any suggestions for the best way to do that on an older Cat 30, it would be appreciated. Thanks everyone for the advice so far.
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Old 05-20-2016, 11:20 AM
JOHN COOKSON JOHN COOKSON is offline
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Quote:
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. Now I will have to find the clog in the line to fix the problem for good. If there are any suggestions for the best way to do that on an older Cat 30, it would be appreciated.
When this happened on my Catalina 27 I ripped the whole vent system out tank->transom and then replace the vent fitting in the transom and ran a new ethanol rated hose tank-> vent fitting. I wanted to be sure any ethanol fumes would not rot out the new hose.
Maybe on your boat ethanol has rotted out the hose so much it has collapsed.
On my boat the vent was blocked because a small screen in the transom fitting corroded and became blocked. I inspect the new fitting yearly with a mirror.
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Last edited by JOHN COOKSON; 05-20-2016 at 11:42 AM.
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Old 05-20-2016, 02:35 PM
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Ah...OK...look for a sag in the vent just aft of the tank under the quarterberth..I taped mine up to the quarterberth opening to get it to stop sagging, and cut it a little shorter to help discourage the tendency to sag...it is probably pretty old stuff..mine was red and chalky. It exits up and thru the stbd side floor of the lazarette and out the transom on my boat. It should take a similar path to the larger (passive) side of the blower system hose in the same area. I eliminated my long vent run when I went to a new fuel fill with an integrated vent last year after realizing all the water coming down the side decks was going in the fuel fill with a bad o-ring.

It sounds like yours is still sealing given the situation you are describing!

I might also replace the hose..if you have to remove it to clean it, replace it! If it only has fuel in it (maybe), it might run back in the tank after the sag is eliminated.
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"Holiday" - '89 Alura 35 #109
"Twice Around" - '77 C-30, #511 with original A-4 & MMI manifold - SOLD! (no longer a two boat owner!!)
http://www.moyermarine.com/forums/signaturepics/sigpic3231_6.gif
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