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Old 01-20-2012, 05:05 PM
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Single Bullet Theory

Not a single bullet, but a single battery.

My luck with batteries has not ben good. I killed a fair battery and killed a new battery in about 3 months due to a variety of issues. Here is what I have learned.

(1) The solar panel regulator did not put out enough power. During bright hot days in summer, the solar panel can keep the batteries topped off. But if it isn't mid-summer, it can not gather enough power from the sun, now low on the horizon.

(2) The Automatic Charge Relay (ACR) seemed to guarantee that if one battery got drained, the other was sure to follow. I don't think it releases batteries from each other quickly enough when the voltage sags.itself

(3) I think keeping the ACR itself powered might have been drain enough to draw down a battery over time.

(4) The CO detector, which was hard-wired and on at all times, is also too much of a drain. Although, to its credit, it does beep and let me know it is hungry for more power with a low voltage alarm of its own. It was my first sign that something was wrong.

(5) The bilge alarm I installed went off one evening (and rightly so) and it took 18 hours for anyone to attend to the boat. A few people in the marina called the marina staff, probably because they couldn't get to sleep. The marina staff did not attend to the problem until the next day. The alarm bell was still ringing. Had it been a dire problem, the boat would have sunk. One of the bilge pumps had jammed and drained its dedicated battery, and thanks to the ACR, the pump weakened the other battery as well.

(6) The CO detector low voltage alarm was also ignored by marina personnel.

(7) Batteries are expensive. I had already purchased two, and now I am faced with purchasing two more.

(8) I see that good marine battery chargers are very expensive - I mean the kind that will (somehow) recognize varying house loads, compensate, and charge two batteries at the same time ($450).

(9) GEL (not AGM) batteries are very deep cycle batteries and I have eyed them wantonly. But I suspect they only do well when they have a dedicated charger specifically designed for it (per manufacturer recommendations). Most smaller GEL batteries come with their own charger. Matching one manufacturer's charger to another manufacturer's battery may shorten battery life.

(10) A battery charger can be overloaded (smoked) if the house circuits are demanding too much power at the same time - I proved this and I am now less one brand-name, 15 amp, marine grade, battery charger. Yes, it was smoking.

Some changes that I will make include the following.

(A) A switchable CO detector - Only on when the boat is peopled. The alarm will be ignored by everyone else anyway.

(B) I want to be able to use ANY battery, a K-Mart special, a $450 Type 31, three 8D's, or lots of D-cells.

(C) I will not use a solar panel. I can't afford a proper one, and the big ones look ugly anyway (those grapes are sour). But also, the back of my solar panel caused blisters on the deck gelcoat. This is the only place on a 37 year old boat where blisters ever occurred.

(D) Remove the ACR. This seems to any be a good idea when charging power is available. For managing charging, it works perfectly. For managing low power conditions it so not so good.

(E) Don Casey has argued that a single battery with larger capacity is a more frugal approach than multiple batteries. High capacity battery will discharge less deeply because its reserve is greater. The depth of a cycle determines how much wear the battery gets.

I know I am a never-leave-it-alone engineering geek. Some of you are nodding your heads yes (I can imagine it). Never-the-less, here is the next sailboat electric power system design out of my head. I have come up with a simpler battery arrangement which uses only one battery. There is no ACR. There is no battery switch. Give it a gander and let me know what you think.

This entire design is predicated upon the fact that we can crank start the A-4. One hand crank cost about $60. Two batteries cost about $160 for cheap ones, and $400 for good ones. Of course, one can pay more.

There is no battery switch - as one would hope for with only one battery. Standards allow for this if the engine starter circuit is fused, which it is (200A).

During the winter, the battery will be removed if shore power is not ALWAYS available. It is easier to remove one battery instead of two or more.

The house current will be limited to a few amps. There are some power hungry devices aboard which will be sold. The fancy Garmin Chart Plotter will be replace with a handheld cheap GPS and charts. The auto-pilot will be replace by a mechanical wind vane. LED bulbs will replace incandescent bulbs. < I have a power budget for anyone to see if they are interested. I have already purchased an LED anchor light which is powered by C-cells. >

Please give this a look and let me know if it will work. I greatly appreciate finding design problem before I build it. The two switched have center-off positions.

I hope we are all on the water again soon. Best to you. - Steve
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Old 01-20-2012, 05:21 PM
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Talking

I like your plan if you can live with the austerity it implies. I have never been a fan of solar power on boats - too expensive and complicated for most. Also your desire to use cheap, deep cycle 31s is spot on. I like the el cheapo 29s from Walmart.
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Old 01-20-2012, 07:44 PM
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I have the 30 amp unit on board and it works perfectly. http://www.iotaengineering.com/power.htm
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Old 01-20-2012, 07:47 PM
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The two approaches to managing power are either on the supply side or the demand side and each is a viable solution. The Pardey's chose to have no electricity at all - no engine too. That's a little too much like cave man living for me. They also eschewed the marine head, preferring to duke in a cedar bucket instead. Bucket and chuck-it. I know, too much information.

I particularly like the decision to stay with a conventional lead-acid battery both in terms of initial cost and charging system compatibility. I would suggest a battery disconnect switch of some sort. If for some reason you need to disconnect the 12V power quickly, turning a switch is preferable to disconnecting a wire or yanking a fuse. Your 200A fuse will protect you as long as it's connected with wire suitable for 200 amps (2/0 according to the coasties).

This next comment is born from living in a commercial and industrial center where everything imaginable is available locally: my preference for a battery source is the actual manufacturer. I buy my batteries from Powertron in Santa Ana right out the back door of the manufacturing facility. The prices seem reasonable and the performance and longevity are excellent (approaching 7 years and still going strong).
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Old 01-21-2012, 04:27 AM
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If your battery is dead, your crank is useless as well. Fuel air and electricity to run.
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Old 01-21-2012, 07:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hanleyclifford View Post
I have the 30 amp unit on board and it works perfectly. http://www.iotaengineering.com/power.htm
You have good taste, Hanley. The Iota Engineering product line is highly regarded by both the ham radio community and companies which manufacture fire and rescue vehicles. We just installed one in the ladder truck at our volunteer fire company.

Bill
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Old 01-21-2012, 08:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Carl-T705 View Post
If your battery is dead, your crank is useless as well. Fuel air and electricity to run.
This is an interesting point. Is it true? It may be true for a stone-cold battery; the alternator may not cough up enough juice to create spark in those first few revolutions. But I suspect a battery with only 9V across it might have enough oomph to sustain the reaction.

I wonder what the minimum household battery configuration would be to start the engine with a crank. Could it be done with 6 D batteries in series?

Obviously the jumpstart comparison doesn't apply; there's plenty of power from the supplying vehicle/battery.

It's just a thought experiment for me - my V-drive leaves the engine mounted flywheel-aft, and I'd have to remove the fuel tank and crouch under the cockpit with my legs sticking out of the lazarette to even touch the flywheel, never mind crank it.

Last edited by tenders; 01-21-2012 at 08:50 AM.
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Old 01-21-2012, 09:03 AM
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Dang Carl, that is an excellent point. Wish I'd thought of it.

In practice though it takes very little power to get the engine to fire, like maybe 10 volts at 4 amps. Unless Steve's single battery is dead flat it likely will have some residual charge, probably enough to get the engine to fire with a hand crank. Once the RPM reaches around 600 - 700 the alternator should start producing.

This is similar to push starting a car.

Steve,
I'm not a big fan of the single battery idea, preferring a separate engine starting batt at least. I didn't say anything in my previous post because it looked to me like you were set on the single battery idea and it's your boat, not mine and therefore your choice. I didn't see a safety issue in your plan so I butted out.
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Old 01-21-2012, 09:39 AM
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Carrying one of the portable, rechargeable "jump start" packs would guarantee enough power to get the engine started so the main battery could be recharged in the event that the battery was drained too low to allow the engine to run with crank starting.
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Old 01-21-2012, 09:43 AM
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Originally Posted by msmith10 View Post
Carrying one of the portable, rechargeable "jump start" packs would guarantee enough power to get the engine started so the main battery could be recharged in the event that the battery was drained too low to allow the engine to run with crank starting.
In theory, yes, but it is an incorrect assumption that the pack will be charged and functioning when you need it. Is the weight and maintenance of the pack any more convenient than an additional, more versatile battery?
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Old 01-21-2012, 10:01 AM
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Originally Posted by hanleyclifford View Post
I have the 30 amp unit on board and it works perfectly. http://www.iotaengineering.com/power.htm
Do you have just the one unit for charging and house power?
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Old 01-21-2012, 10:05 AM
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Originally Posted by hanleyclifford View Post
"...when you smell land where there be no land, behold, he rises and Ahab beckons!...and all save one shall follow..." Elijah (on the wharf at New Bedford)
And the one saved was named Ishmael, yes?
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Old 01-21-2012, 10:12 AM
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Originally Posted by ndutton View Post
They also eschewed the marine head, preferring to duke in a cedar bucket instead. Bucket and chuck-it. I know, too much information.
I have thought about this as well, but this is easier for men to contemplate than our wives. Might be a topic for later.
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Old 01-21-2012, 10:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ndutton View Post
I would suggest a battery disconnect switch of some sort.
I have reviewed this issue for some time. As near as I can tell I am following ABYC recommendations. But I do already have a battery switch, so I guess I might as well use it. I am not sure I could sell the boat (in the future) without one. Thanks for pointing this out. Not every one is a techie type like me.

Which is a good thing.

Last edited by High Hopes; 01-21-2012 at 10:19 AM. Reason: addition
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Old 01-21-2012, 10:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Carl-T705 View Post
If your battery is dead, your crank is useless as well. Fuel air and electricity to run.
Hmm . . . a wrinkle.

I know that my alternator does not kick in until I hit about 1,000 rpm. I did not wire the tickler circuit. That needs to be added.

Maybe I need a generator, not an alternator. I takes only a few amps to power the ignition coil. Even a weak battery may provide that. But you are right, it will not start without a battery of some kind. Food for thought. Thanks (I think) for pointing this out.
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Old 01-21-2012, 10:32 AM
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Originally Posted by tenders View Post
In theory, yes, but it is an incorrect assumption that the pack will be charged and functioning when you need it. Is the weight and maintenance of the pack any more convenient than an additional, more versatile battery?
The battery packs weigh < 10 lbs.
Keeping one charged is a matter of plugging it in overnight every couple of months. That's the only maintenance required. Easier than the maintenance on another lead-acid battery.
I carry one not only for the safety of a backup to my 2 battery system, but also to jump others if they need it.
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Old 01-21-2012, 10:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ndutton View Post
Steve,
I'm not a big fan of the single battery idea, preferring a separate engine starting batt at least. I didn't say anything in my previous post because it looked to me like you were set on the single battery idea and it's your boat, not mine and therefore your choice. I didn't see a safety issue in your plan so I butted out.
No worries. Thanks for your help.
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Old 01-21-2012, 10:39 AM
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More power

Steve,

You and I approach this from opposite camps. From the single battery/hand crank strategy and the cedar bucket comment it appears yours is a minimalist strategy while mine is a more spoiled or convenience driven approach.

I have halogen cabin lighting that can suck the life out of a battery but I like the look of it. I have refrigeration, TV, DVD, stereo, pressure water, holding tank macerator and so on. Under way I have GPS, GPS plotter, depth sounder, autopilot and radar. Soon to be installed is an anchor windlass. In a word, YIKES!

But I also have accommodation for 5 batteries (only three on board right now) and a big alternator to replenish them. I'm at a dock with shore power so the day to day usage is replenished through a charger.

Why all this consumption? Well, I'm getting older and softer. I like my beer cold, don't want to hand pump the holding tank and don't want to haul up the anchor by hand, would much rather flip a switch. Same with starting the engine. I'd rather carry a dedicated engine starting battery than a hand crank.

This approach applies to me and only me. Not the young squire I used to be.
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Old 01-21-2012, 11:18 AM
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Originally Posted by ndutton View Post
Steve,

You and I approach this from opposite camps. From the single battery/hand crank strategy and the cedar bucket comment it appears yours is a minimalist strategy while mine is a more spoiled or convenience driven approach.
This approach applies to me and only me. Not the young squire I used to be.
Long term you and I are on the same page. I am thinking there is a genset in my future. But not with this boat, on a bigger one. Right now I just want to get back out on the water and do some sailing. I will be 60 years old in June, so my comfort needs are growing as well. I am seeking simplicity as I have to do most of the upkeep and maintenance myself.
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Old 01-21-2012, 12:06 PM
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Red face Throwing a wrench!

I've been following this thread and was waiting for someone to point out that the A-4 does not use a magnieto. The hand crank works fine if you have good access and arm! A weak spark is much harder to start which is why the older engines were wired the way they were.
I don't use much electricity on my boat as I have no refridgeration. I will sit at the island and the kids watch TV and videos a lot of the time. I will have the VHF fired up the whole time of the stay and a very good sound system plays most of the day. I have 235 amps in the house side and a grp 27 on the start side both deep cycle. For years I had trouble with battery life about 3 years and kaput. I talked ot quite a few about this and came up with a suprising result. I know get 6~7 years out of my batteriies and no worries. I can still sit for a week and she'll start usually on the house, not often do I need to use the "start" battery. I have the stock 35 amp alternator and a 13.7 v regulator that pegs at around 14 when fully charged. I also got rid of the std light bulbs and went to all halogen and reduced my lighting load by nearly 50%. When I leave the boat the bilge pump is the only thing drawing power~no indicator lights at all. I leave the boat for a couple of months and the batterise are still at 12.8 volts and will spin the starter.
What I did to gain all of this battery life was to just excersize the "deep cycle" capability a bit IE I through my battery maintainer/charger in the trash and keep a small std battery charger in the dock box. I have no shore power and I visit the boat regularly, lights and radios and sometimes I fire up the gps (WIRED DIRECT TO THE HOUSE SIDE) to check voltage. Now only if I leave something on which drained the batteries which has happened I don't ever put a charger/maintainer near my boat!!!! Since adopting this practice my batteries live longer and require far less maintenance! It was a elertrical engineer, a neighbor that told me to give up the constant charging senario and it has certainly worked for me. I don't fully inderstand why it works but I can certainly notice the results.

Dave Neptune
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Old 01-21-2012, 12:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Dave Neptune View Post
What I did to gain all of this battery life was to just excersize the "deep cycle" capability a bit IE I through my battery maintainer/charger in the trash and keep a small std battery charger in the dock box. I have no shore power and I visit the boat regularly, lights and radios and sometimes I fire up the gps (WIRED DIRECT TO THE HOUSE SIDE) to check voltage. Now only if I leave something on which drained the batteries which has happened I don't ever put a charger/maintainer near my boat!!!! Since adopting this practice my batteries live longer and require far less maintenance! It was a elertrical engineer, a neighbor that told me to give up the constant charging senario and it has certainly worked for me. I don't fully inderstand why it works but I can certainly notice the results.
Dave Neptune
Hi Dave,
I understand the need for deep cycling GEL batteries. But I understand that lead acid batteries do not do well when they are bled down too low. Do you use GEL batteries?

Sometimes I leave the boat unattended for months. I am not sure what to do then. Maybe I am taking a minimize-the-loss approach out of anger. I have noticed when I routinely go to the boat, the batteries last. Probably because I pay attention to them. I would use them in my car to keep them perky if they weren't so heavy and hard to move. Car batteries get a lot of starter use and they seem to last a long time.

I see you have 235 amps. Don Casey says the bigger the better because the batteries will NOT be deep cycled. Did you have that capacity before you changed your charging regime? i am not being contrary, I just don't know what to think.
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Old 01-21-2012, 08:11 PM
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Do you have just the one unit for charging and house power?
Yes, and it maintains the 4 31/29 units at 13.6 volts.
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Old 01-21-2012, 08:13 PM
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And the one saved was named Ishmael, yes?
Aye, and I believe the story goes that he did not go back down to the sea...
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Old 01-21-2012, 08:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Dave Neptune View Post
I've been following this thread and was waiting for someone to point out that the A-4 does not use a magnieto. The hand crank works fine if you have good access and arm! A weak spark is much harder to start which is why the older engines were wired the way they were.
I don't use much electricity on my boat as I have no refridgeration. I will sit at the island and the kids watch TV and videos a lot of the time. I will have the VHF fired up the whole time of the stay and a very good sound system plays most of the day. I have 235 amps in the house side and a grp 27 on the start side both deep cycle. For years I had trouble with battery life about 3 years and kaput. I talked ot quite a few about this and came up with a suprising result. I know get 6~7 years out of my batteriies and no worries. I can still sit for a week and she'll start usually on the house, not often do I need to use the "start" battery. I have the stock 35 amp alternator and a 13.7 v regulator that pegs at around 14 when fully charged. I also got rid of the std light bulbs and went to all halogen and reduced my lighting load by nearly 50%. When I leave the boat the bilge pump is the only thing drawing power~no indicator lights at all. I leave the boat for a couple of months and the batterise are still at 12.8 volts and will spin the starter.
What I did to gain all of this battery life was to just excersize the "deep cycle" capability a bit IE I through my battery maintainer/charger in the trash and keep a small std battery charger in the dock box. I have no shore power and I visit the boat regularly, lights and radios and sometimes I fire up the gps (WIRED DIRECT TO THE HOUSE SIDE) to check voltage. Now only if I leave something on which drained the batteries which has happened I don't ever put a charger/maintainer near my boat!!!! Since adopting this practice my batteries live longer and require far less maintenance! It was a elertrical engineer, a neighbor that told me to give up the constant charging senario and it has certainly worked for me. I don't fully inderstand why it works but I can certainly notice the results.

Dave Neptune
In all probability your hard wired charger was charging at too high a voltage. This is a common problem especially with the multiple rate stage chargers.
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Old 01-21-2012, 10:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hanleyclifford View Post
Yes, and it maintains the 4 31/29 units at 13.6 volts.
That's good news. Here is my latest plan. It includes a battery switch, for decency sake (per ndutton). It only uses one battery. And I've added meters to see what happens. The price of one battery will pay for the meters. I know some chargers have built-in meters, but I want to be able to use any charger/power supply. If I need to add an engine battery I can do so. The green circles are the gauges.

Funny, after all that fussing with an ACR, here I am at ground zero with a conventional battery switch.
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