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  #26   IP: 151.200.19.11
Old 02-03-2013, 11:39 AM
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2dogs....you will have to decide the road you travel with regards to what you fabricate yourself, what you source locally and what you buy from Moyer. I try to patronize them whenever I can, but sometimes (i.e. a distributor cap or rotor) it is more cost effective me to stop at the local NAPA on the way home and pick one up. I can get impellers and a few gaskets & pencil zincs from my local marina..I have friends that work there, so I give them some of my $$ to keep them in business too.

Switching to studs in the side plate is a perfect example..if you want a tested, trick idea with all the parts ready to go, pick up the Moyer kit. I took an approach similar to Al's...except I used stainless bolts, chopped off their heads () and then cut them to the correct length, cleaned up the jagged edges and made studs. I think the recommended use of JB Weld in this case is because its thicker consistency in theory will fill more gaps (less chance of water leakage.) - Then I used brass nuts & washers.

As for shopping at the Moyer site, I browse their website, jot down my part numbers & quantity & price, and keep a running list in my boat 'notebook'. When it is time to order, I call Ken directly (using the parts phone # on the site) and we always have a nice chat. Ken is another invaluable behind-the-scenes resource in the Moyer arsenal. I always place all of my Moyer orders directly thru him rather than thru the site (that's how he gets paid too!) Just this last order, as I was explaining the current state of my engine, he reminded me of an additional gasket I'd need during re-assembly I might have otherwise forgotten. Incidentally, the part # thing is really just an exercise..Ken knows every part in the inventory, & in reality, I don't really have to bother remembering any part numbers anymore..

I think your plan to go with the gasket kit is probably a good one. Also, there are several gaskets I have several spares of. Water pump cover plate gaskets, carb gaskets (since we always seem to be tearing that apart), etc. Things that require periodic maintenance I think are a good idea to have extras on hand..that way you never have to wait if you have everything in your spares box.

{stepping off soap box now}
Have fun with the rebuild...and keep uploading those great pics & questions.
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Last edited by sastanley; 02-03-2013 at 11:52 AM.
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  #27   IP: 70.199.227.160
Old 02-03-2013, 04:01 PM
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Shawn,
"soap box" very informative I must say Home Depot didn't have any SS threaded rods in any thread size, brass nuts only to 1/4-20...although I did see it on line. Got some penetrating oil and I am working with it...don't feel any change on jacket water side plate bolts though.....Started making a list
Went Cabalas yesterday and got seats that will fit the boat ......went with ready to use product, rather to manufacture a bench....I like the pedestal (because leave lots of floor space). The pedestal little too tall...need to check for about 6" shorter model.
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  #28   IP: 72.82.115.53
Old 02-03-2013, 04:30 PM
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You can cut down the pedestal post on that one.
A little work, but not bad.
Remove the plastic collar, cut some off
drill, re- tap the hole for the clamping bolt.
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  #29   IP: 70.199.227.160
Old 02-03-2013, 06:18 PM
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yes, will have to cut it and re-tap it....this is the only length they have
Bad news on water jacket cover front - second bolt broken off.....none is giving in...they all are rusted in the block.....I am thinking that maybe it will be easier to get them out when heads are broken off - at least there will be an access to the threads - .....am I right?
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  #30   IP: 70.199.227.160
Old 02-03-2013, 09:39 PM
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......taking carburator apart.....touched first screw with a screwdriver - head comes off like it was just sitting there and waiting to be touched
......I will take it to work to check thread size for replacement screw
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  #31   IP: 206.125.176.5
Old 02-04-2013, 10:04 AM
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2dogs..i feel your pain on this project. Everything you touch just falls apart.

Let's hope that the bolts in the water jacket are breaking off right at the head...once they are all out/broken & the plate comes off, you might be able to get a vice-grips or something on them to get them out of the block. What type of pentrating oil are you using? The junk at Home Depot may not be good enough..Some folks on this site have decided a 50/50 mix of acetone & ATF might be the best. Once the plate is off, you maybe able to get some of this to work its way into the threads of the broken bolts & come loose without having to drill them out.
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  #32   IP: 207.179.13.196
Old 02-04-2013, 02:52 PM
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I will get trough this
...most likelly nothing is going to help to free the bolts.....so far they are braking with about 1/4 to 3/8 of thread...I will try mix of ATF/acetone.
In worst case, I will brake them all off....mount the block on big drill press or Bridgeport manual mill, and drill and mill holes...maybe tap the rest of rusted in thread with hand tap......use Moyers set screw kit to fix it for good

BTW...thread size for my broken carburator screw is 4-40 !

Last edited by 2dogsnight; 02-04-2013 at 03:00 PM.
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  #33   IP: 206.125.176.5
Old 02-04-2013, 04:36 PM
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My local ACE Hardware gets hardware from Hillman, and they have #4-40 and everything in between too..

My local non-chain hardware store has an excellent selection of hardware too. That is where I got my stainless bolts and made them into studs.

If you don't have access to one yourself, I'll be happy to pick up whatever you need along the way.
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  #34   IP: 207.179.13.196
Old 02-04-2013, 05:15 PM
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thank you for the offer Shawn!!!
.......so very nice of you !!
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  #35   IP: 76.122.168.101
Old 02-04-2013, 09:18 PM
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The mill totally rocks. Another thing you might try is welding a nut on the stuck fastener. The nut makes for good purchase with a socket and the concentrated heat will break free some seriously stuck fasteners.
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Old 02-04-2013, 09:51 PM
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2dog - I would be using a lot of heat from a propane torch on the water jacket side plate bolts;

...don't forget the excellent MMI stud repair kit to fix things up after - Universal should have used studs in the first place IMO;

...the carb requires much smaller and delicate screwdrivers to dismantle - something like a Chapmans Gun Screwdriver kit works very well - remember those brass/bronze fasteners have probably welded themselves together over the years - again, gentle heating should help to break the bond without breaking the screw.


Last edited by 67c&ccorv; 02-04-2013 at 09:54 PM.
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  #37   IP: 76.122.168.101
Old 02-05-2013, 07:18 AM
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Quote:
I would be using a lot of heat
I agree with the lots of heat idea. I have had mixed success with a propane torch on big things like the water jacket bolts. That block can absorb an amazing amount of heat. A MAP or Oxy / Acetylene torch is more likely to give me the heat I need. I have both and use the MAP on the boat because it is so portable.

FWIW: On rusty fasteners in old things, I have found that "hot enough" often means red hot. One friend likes to heat it red hot and then cool the fastener with a wet rag.

All that heat is one reason that welding a nut on a broken fastener often works. That plus the usual bag of tricks: penetrating oil, impact, working it back and forth, swearing and the occasional overnight break for libations.

Good luck!

Mike
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  #38   IP: 207.179.13.196
Old 02-07-2013, 02:53 PM
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....weekdays are filled to the brim for me, so no fun work can be accomplished....but I was doing lots of thinking about rusted bolts, and desperate thoughts were coming to mind - like hire a mechanic to do this for me
....thankfully I was able to dismissed it, and now I am looking forward to cranked up the heat this weekend
...here is first broken bolt - thread length about 3/8 ....I love this great looking washer !!
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  #39   IP: 151.200.19.11
Old 02-07-2013, 11:11 PM
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Thumbs up we all dream of boats

2dogs...again..we all feel your pain. too busy during the week, yet we dream of boat work.

I finally broke down last week and I just got my order of Kroil delivered to work today, courtesy of "ILikeRust"s link provided elsewhere on this forum. It provided a very small pick-me-up of fun boat work to come and new tools to tackle them with!

My most recent issue was a corroded manifold stud which crumbled to nothing, so no Kroil/PB Blaster needed, but I am prepared for the next stuck beast I find.

Carry on when you can..we are here with you!
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"Holiday" - '89 Alura 35 #109
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  #40   IP: 99.141.137.206
Old 02-08-2013, 11:51 AM
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unfortunately it looks like you wont have much sticking out to work with when you finally get the cover off. I agree that welding a nut onto whats left of the bolt is the way to go; just don't accidentally weld the bolt to the block! be patient with the remaining bolts as it's easier to get them out intact than broken. heat will do the trick but it's hard to get enough into that block to make it work. propane will get you nowhere; you need mapp gas at least. I would even go so far as to zap the head of the intact bolts with the welder to heat them up, being careful not to ruin the edges. but even if you did, you could always weld a nut on. I bought a Hobart wire feed welder from Northern Tool and Equipment for about $350 and never regretted it. A mechanic might cost as much and you wouldn't have a nice tool to show for it. Make sure to practice welding some before you attempt the real thing and put some wet towels all around so the boat doesn't catch fire.
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  #41   IP: 199.168.148.136
Old 02-08-2013, 12:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sastanley View Post
we dream of boat work.
It works for me.
Sometimes it helps to step back and shift the problem to your subconscious mind while you do another task with your conscious mind. Work can be pretty mind numbing at times. Many times the solution or way forward will suddenly appear.

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  #42   IP: 70.199.228.123
Old 02-09-2013, 09:44 PM
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I need to get Kroil too for future projects...
Well....I broke-off ALL 8 bolts.....but when the motor will be out of the boat I will deal with it with Kroil and Easy Out.....I am sure that I can take care of it in speedy fashion later on....
Lot's of loose rust inside water passage...I was thinking to do a partial rebuild with motor in the boat...but seeing all this rust I want to go trough every system and make sure they will work.
Starter works, fine....took out mechanical fuel pump and need to take it apart....got screw for carburator...
Now goal is to take of all removable components and take the motor out of the boat, and have block checked etc
Thank you for all your help....I learn something new from every posting!!!
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  #43   IP: 173.53.22.120
Old 02-09-2013, 10:23 PM
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Originally Posted by 2dogsnight View Post
I need to get Kroil too for future projects...
Well....I broke-off ALL 8 bolts.....but when the motor will be out of the boat I will deal with it with Kroil and Easy Out
I think at that point, I would just carefully drill them all out...
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Old 02-09-2013, 11:06 PM
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Do NOT use an easy-out!! For any bolt that was frozen enough to break off the bolt, it will break off the easy-out too!! This will leave you in a much worse position, as you will still have to drill, but now there's an almost undrillable piece of hardened steel in the way!

If there's any stub of the bolt left protruding, weld a nut onto it. Then apply lot's of alternating heat, Kroil, and tapping. No large torques. It WILL eventually come out.

If they're broken off flush, you'll have to drill them out. I strongly suggest the stud kit that Moyer sells here. When I rebuilt my A4, I pre-emptively converted all the bolt holes to SS studs with their kits. Problem solved forever.
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Old 02-09-2013, 11:53 PM
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2dogs..I am with Ed..no easy outs...they will make it worse.

The block around the water jacket plate is not very thick..you might (no guarantees) be able to get a vice grips or something on the tail end of the bolt from inside and start to spin it out. This may not work for all of them...but it might work for some of them.

Sacrifice drill bits...save the block when drilling..it will be tedious, but rewarding at the same time..

Use Bill T's link and get some Kroil..mine showed up this week.

edit - I am really amazed at the condition of your 50 year old engine block...it looks really good.
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"Holiday" - '89 Alura 35 #109
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Last edited by sastanley; 02-09-2013 at 11:57 PM.
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  #46   IP: 70.199.228.123
Old 02-10-2013, 12:10 AM
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thank you Bill and Ed......
I will have to drill them out then...got today SS bolts to turn them into studs and brass nuts,
Shawn, you think the block looks good?? I was wandering about that. Now , where the bolts are exposed, I can try Kroil etc....But because of the thickness of the block where the water jacket it, I am not going to worry about broken bolts, in worst case I can drill them bigger and go with bigger studs...hell, even go with two different thread size studs if nessesary
Have to hurry and get all components off and have shop check the block for cracks etc...

Still wandering ..how am I going to get the motor out of the boat??

Last edited by 2dogsnight; 02-10-2013 at 12:23 AM.
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  #47   IP: 24.152.131.153
Old 02-10-2013, 03:09 AM
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I can't say for the early model engines such as yours but the factory original sideplate bolts on my late model were of the softest metal I've ever seen, about the same as cheddar cheese it seemed. Drilling out the one I broke was easy.
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Old 02-10-2013, 08:29 AM
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I was the first to suggest welding a nut on the stub, but looking at your picture I would go immediately to drilling and re-tapping for studs. So I think you are doing the right thing. On one of my project motors I had to drill out a broken bolt in that location and it went very easily. The retap wasn't hard either

I wouldn't worry too much about the accumulated scale in the water jacket. I have two older blocks (early 60's) that are very sound and they had accumulated all sorts of crud--including rusty chunks. I took them into the chemistry lab at the school where I teach and ran a little experiment. Turns out that the solid stuff I took out was actually a mixture of rusty scale and calcium carbonate.
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Old 02-10-2013, 01:03 PM
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I hope bolts are cheddar cheese like

I will wait to get the block out of the boat and drill them out then.
Prabably the rusty crud is a mixture of rust and raw ocean water creatures....as the boat was all it's life on Puget Sound
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Old 02-10-2013, 05:16 PM
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2dogs..the rust and stuff is just surface rust..the integrity of the casting and condition of everything looks great. Each time I work on my engine, I seem to chip off another layer of block material. Areas like where the aft drain is has no discernible boss area around it...just all corroded away from years of no care being given to it.

When you go to drill those bad bolts out...eventually you'll be able to pick the remnants out of the block's threads with a pick...with a thread chasing kit you may even be able to salvage the existing threads. All that being said, the P.O. on my boat simply upsized the bolts at the alternator bracket and at the lower aft bolt hole when they started leaking...so I have 6 one size, and two another size..
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