Just another overhaul thread

[Surcouf]

Originally Posted by ronstory

More lapping is needed. You can still see pitting on the surface.

Good luck! You are now at the fun stage.

Edit: Did you have the shop cut the valve seat for you?

Thank you.
No shop did not cut the seats. This is a partial overhaul only, crankshaft was not removed.

I do not have a "drill suction tool", and mid-way through the effort I went to Pep Girls get the usual suction tool mounted on a wood stick. I had very limited success. The larger valves have a flat bottom, and were OK. These ones are the least corroded anyway. The smallest ones (intake I suppose), are the most corroded, and took way more time to lap. Moreover, they have a "concave base", that defeats the suction cups. I have grinded several layer of my fingers skin to get to an acceptable result.
So at the end, it took me the best of 6 hours to lap those valves, and a very large can of carb cleaner to make sure to clean the valve guides between each step.

I then went into the installation of the valves. The MM Marine manual describes that as a frustrating experience... I was ready for the worst, but all went back very nicely in less than 30 minutes (the advice from MM manual to do that with the engine tilted on its side is priceless; would have been a nightmare to do on a vertical position). So I spent another 30 minutes under the impression I had done something wrong, lifting / dropping the spring to verify that all was OK, and that the small keys were not wrongly installed. Good to go.
Now I have to look into my paint job catastrophe, but that is a story for another day!

[Surcouf]

Loading / unloading with ladder, Only way to load alone, shy of owning the right tool... Pictures I forgot to take the previous round...

[ronstory]

Well, you got though the lapping process... and your time in getting the lifters and valves in made up for the frustration. Good job!

I love the ladder idea, my engine was dropped off this morning to the machine shop. But mine is fully disassembled so the block, oil pan and then just two boxes of parts.

Oh, seeing the owner and tech look at motor was similar to folks looking at a box of puppies. "Well isn't that cute" was the best comment.

[Surcouf]

so at the beginning of that adventure, the goal was simple: remove the engine from the boat, remove the head and get these dead spark plugs out, and paint the block. There was a few things that were on my "do-not-touch" list. That list is getting shorter by the day... So the head is back on its block, bolts torqued etc... I was going through the multiple steps of POR painting" old paint stripping, another de-grease, metal prep etc... and just when I was going through the last step, I discovered that the bottom of the distributor body was very corroded (I knew that), but so much that the tube had a hole in it!!! So after crying a few minutes, I finally decided to do what I should have done 3 months ago: remove the distributor.

But of course, on a very rusted block, nothing goes normally. Even with the clamp not touching the distributor, distributor would not bulge, despite the different products sprayed during weeks. ((I am ready to bet that the distributor was not checked - tuned for a least a decade by the PO))). So I huffed, I puffed.. and I broke the ***###n distributor tube (See pictures below). So now the tube is broken, but the gear is still in. So I cannot remove the distributor, blocked by the broken tube stuck solid in the accessory module body. Just out of frustration, I first took my largest hammer and started to hit the distributor body hoping that the aluminium would shatter. No luck!

So I had to remove the accessory gear (by the way another gasket to order to MM). A lot of corrosion and rust, but I am getting better at that and 20 minutes later it was out. And now what???

So Question:
- I have a broken distributor "tube" stuck in my accessory module... what can I do now with the distributor shaft still in place? How do I remove the "plate" that is rotating with the shaft and located at the bottom of the distributor? (see 4th picture below). Do I need a very small extractor?
- Once I remove that plate, and so can remove the broken distributor body, how can I remove the shaft, still linked to the gear, blocked by the broken tube??
- if I can get the shaft out (how?), how do I remove the broken tube? I drill it out?

Thank you for your help!!!

PS: And of course, the bolt holding the clamp broke... and now I have to find a way to remove it... and I have learnt my lessons: screw extractors just DO NOT work!!!

[Surcouf]

Pictures first

[Surcouf]

Pictures two
Thank you

[ronstory]

Oh Dude... I'm so sorry. You have been on the wrong side of the "probability of things going good/bad" bell curve on this refit.

Hang in there... it will get better.

[edwardc]

Originally Posted by Surcouf

- I have a broken distributor "tube" stuck in my accessory module... what can I do now with the distributor shaft still in place? How do I remove the "plate" that is rotating with the shaft and located at the bottom of the distributor? (see 4th picture below). Do I need a very small extractor?
- Once I remove that plate, and so can remove the broken distributor body, how can I remove the shaft, still linked to the gear, blocked by the broken tube??
- if I can get the shaft out (how?), how do I remove the broken tube? I drill it out?

Wow! What a nightmare.

At least there's hope. And a couple of choices based on money vs time.

The quickest, but most expensive, solution is to buy a new Pertronix distributor and a rebuilt accessory drive from MMI. This is a bolt-in solution, but will set you back $675 ($400 +$275). And it leaves you with electronic ignition!

The hardest, but least expensive, solution is to somehow remove enough of the distributor without destroying anything more. You may need to use a dremel with a cutoff wheel to disect the remains of the distributor body. Then use a thin bladed sabersaw hacksaw to slice through the wall of the broken-off tube from the inside so it releases and can be removed. All without scoring the wall of the accessory drive. A machine shop may be able to help you with this.

Once all this is done, a distributor body replacement is available from MMI for $80. Salvage all the other distributor parts and reassemble.

Originally Posted by Surcouf

And of course, the bolt holding the clamp broke... and now I have to find a way to remove it... and I have learnt my lessons: screw extractors just DO NOT work!!!

Using a sharp center punch, put a "divot" directly in the center of the broken off bolt. The more accurately you get this centered, the better the outcome.

Using the punch mark as a guide, drill a small pilot hole in the center of the bolt stub. Then use successively larger bits, slowly enlarge the hole. Left-handed bits are useful here if you have or can get them. They often will unscrew the stub as it gets thinner and weaker.

If you reach the point where you are right about to start damaging threads, you can use an awl and a needle nose to try and remove the remaining bits of bolt from the threads. Finish up with a tap of the same size as the original bolt .

If all this fails, you can drill it out to the next bigger size, tap it, and use a helicoil or repair collar to finish the fix. Repair collars are better if you can get them as they are sealed and have one less place for oil to leak thru.

[Surcouf]

Thank you for your advices!!!!

It was not pretty nor elegant, based on brut force and ugly drilling.... but the remains of the distributor body is out, shaft and gear seem OK; accessory module is fine.
There are a few “gaskets” / plastic washers damaged, not sure if MM has them on stock, I cannot find that anywhere online. I will ask Ken on Monday, when buying the new distributor body.

[ronstory]

Great job gorillain' it apart. As for the parts, fear not, it's early model Delco distributor so parts are widely available. Most of the changes on various models of Delco is the length of the shaft and the gear for specific applications. A lot of the part are just interchangeable.

Also, if you drop off the parts at a distributor shop with the new housing... it will come back new. Plus they will give you the resulting advance curve. Don't forget to order "improved" distributor springs from MMI or Indigo.

[Surcouf]

Originally Posted by ronstory

Great job gorillain' it apart. As for the parts, fear not, it's early model Delco distributor so parts are widely available. Most of the changes on various models of Delco is the length of the shaft and the gear for specific applications. A lot of the part are just interchangeable.

Also, if you drop off the parts at a distributor shop with the new housing... it will come back new. Plus they will give you the resulting advance curve. Don't forget to order "improved" distributor springs from MMI or Indigo.

Thank you. follow-up questions:
- are you sure I have an early model distributor? The igniter module was mounted on a flat plate, not like the one sold by MM for early model
- if it is an early model, that may be an issue as MM is only selling a body for late models, not early ones

Thank you!!!

[edwardc]

Another possibility. Saw this distributor on ebay for $150 + $20 shipping:

https://www.ebay.com/i/193315314534?...SABEgK0r_D_BwE

[ronstory]

Originally Posted by Surcouf

Thank you. follow-up questions:
- are you sure I have an early model distributor? The igniter module was mounted on a flat plate, not like the one sold by MM for early model
- if it is an early model, that may be an issue as MM is only selling a body for late models, not early ones

Thank you!!!

Sorry for the confusion, you have an early style delco distributor body that was used in just about all GM products from the early 60s to the mid 70s. It was replaced by the ugly, big but very functional delco HEI models.

A4 has two distributors bodies, the early prestolite with the clips and the late model Delco which you have. A lot of the parts on the late model (dust seals, washers/shim) will be similar to the GM distributors. I've stolen parts from my chevy bin in the past.

Note that the late model distributor cap and rotor are the same part numbers as an early Chevy Vega. I know the 1974 Vega works, since that was my first car.

When I first saw the A4 in Surprise... I thought that I had seen that disti before. The shaft and body are just shorter then the Vega version, plus a different drive gear.

[Surcouf]

I guessed my boat never embodied better his (or her?) name... «*Almost there*»

[Surcouf]

Originally Posted by ronstory

Also, if you let POR-15 get in the lip of the can where the metal lid attaches, you can forget about opening it again. What I do when i open the gallon, I have the metal quart paint containers from home depot on hand. Then I paint everything I can possibly paint and then pour the remnants carefully into the fresh quart containers and seal. Good for about a year if done well.

if you are using the quarts, keep a couple of the metal pint containers on hand as well.

this is where this blog is priceless.... without your previous advice, I would have ended up with my expensive paint drying up!
Thank you !!!

[ronstory]

Glad to help. After my first experience of POR-15 'lid weld' I ended up drilling a hole in the lid to pour it out into smaller containers.

Sometimes I wonder if POR-15 really just a mild mannered paint, or an adhesive masquerading as paint. ;^)

[Surcouf]

There is no more frustrating that the paint part of an overhaul....

After the initial catastrophée or the POR-15 on the oil pan, I went back to bare metal on the pan, then 2 coats of POR-15, light sanding on every parts, then a coat of POR Primer (blue-ish). And now as I start to paint in MM bronze for the block... the flywheel cover and the oil pan paint is a mess: paint is reacting like with a paint remover . Ugly. I can’t take that any more. So some scrapping and re-painting. I just hate painting. I hate painting.... but the block looks great. But I hate painting


Anyway, back to the question of the day: I have lost the key for the alternator pulley... lesson of the day: never enough dismantling pictures, never enough plastic bags and labels!!! Several months later you have no idea where goes every piece (unless it is your second or third overhaul).
How do I replace that key? Is that standard? Specific dimensions?
Thank you!!

[Ando]

Why is the por-15/paint doing that?

[ndutton]

Originally Posted by Ando

Why is the por-15/paint doing that?

Inadequate drying time between coats.

[Surcouf]

Originally Posted by ndutton

Inadequate drying time between coats.

Could too much time be an issue? I had 24h between the primer and the first spray coat. Before primer, 2 coats of POR several weeks before.
The block had the exact same «*paint schedule*», not a single «*ugly star*»...

[ndutton]

In general terms, this occurs with air dried paints (1 part) where the surface dries quickly but the underlying paint takes much longer because it is sealed off from air by the surface skin. Heavy coats are an aggravating factor. Wrinkling is prevented by applying several thin coats with sufficient drying time between. Once wrinkling has occurred, the entire finish must be removed and started over. Trying to remedy what is already there will be an exercise in futility.

Paint choice can help. Two part (catalyzed) paints dry chemically through the entire thickness. Cobalt drier is an additive that acts as a drying accelerant in air dried oil based paints (1 part) but should not be considered an alternative to thin coats.

[Surcouf]

Originally Posted by ndutton

In general terms, this occurs with air dried paints (1 part) where the surface dries quickly but the underlying paint takes much longer because it is sealed off from air by the surface skin. Heavy coats are an aggravating factor. Wrinkling is prevented by applying several thin coats with sufficient drying time between. Once wrinkling has occurred, the entire finish must be removed and started over. Trying to remedy what is already there will be an exercise in futility.

I should have waited 48hrs... thank you for answer!!

So one question today: I may have lost the key for my alternator pulley. Where could I find a replacement? None for sale on MM website. Would anybody have dimension? tip to replace it?

Thank you !!

[ndutton]

Depending on the thickness of the previous coat, temperature, humidity, etc., 48 hours may not be enough either. Back when car repainting was a booming business the shops would lay on a single heavy coat and roll the car into an infrared booth to dry it. The example does not directly apply to your situation because there was no second coat but it speaks to air drying paint in a variety of atmospheric conditions.

Key stock is available at any good auto parts store, hardware store or industrial supplier. Can't help you on the size.

[edwardc]

Originally Posted by Surcouf

...So one question today: I may have lost the key for my alternator pulley. Where could I find a replacement? None for sale on MM website. Would anybody have dimension? tip to replace it?

Thank you !!

757 choices at McMaster-Carr!

https://www.mcmaster.com/key-stock

[Surcouf]

So question for P-day (pan day)... how do you put the oil pan back on the block? - Block on its back (so lying head down), so it is easier to lay the 2 gaskets?
- Or “block standing vertical”?
- 3 rd option is pan lying flat at the bottom, but I do not have anything to lift my block and slowly take it down onto the pan, nor do I have an “engine stand”.

I prefer to ask the question to people who went down that road before I end up both hands covered of Permatex trying to hold the gaskets in place, or doing the same with an unstable block..

Thank you