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  #1   IP: 71.235.152.37
Old 05-28-2007, 10:17 AM
Mal Leichter Mal Leichter is offline
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3rd Season A4 Problems Starting/Running again

I have a 1979 Tartan (585) with the original A4. When it runs it runs well. Has 110 lbs of compression in all 4 cylinders.

2 years ago I had issues and the engine wouldn't start. $1,200 later with a totally new ignition system (except for the distributor) and a new fuel delivery system except for the tank it was supposed to be fixed. At the same time they rebuilt the carburator. It ran ok but still would stall for really no reason. Last season I was on my way to Block Island sailing away with the engine running to charge batteries. It stalled and I couldn't get it started again. Turned around and sailed home. That time the yard said ir was Water in the fuel. Again it ran ok for the rest of the summer but still would stall for no reason.

This year the yard lauched her last week. The A4 SUPPOSEDLY ran fine for the yard people. I started her Saturday. She ran eratically. Would speed up, slow down, then finally stall. I couldn't resatrt her. I had a spare fuel filter on the boat so I changed it. The engine started right up and ran great. I took her into the dock and she ran fine. I tied up and spent about 3 hours cleaning and loading the cabin for the season so she cooled down. Started her up and the same issue. Ran lousy! Sped up slowed down. I tried the choke in several positions. Finally after 2 or 3 minutes it stalled and wouldn't restart. I just let it sit for about 3 minutes and she started and ran ok again.

I don't know what to do. I have no trust in the engine and nobody seems to be able to fix it at least nobody at my Marina. They keep telling me to pull the engine and put in a yanmar deisel. Not interested in that. I like the quietnes of the A4 when it runs reliably.

Should I be pumping the gas out of the tank?? Is there a way to clean the tank???. Doesn't look like there is a way to get it out? Should I be replacing the Carburator

Any Ideas??? Also Any suggestions of a good A4 mechanic in the Mystic or New London Connecticut area?? Maybe I need to have some else work on it. If you can't post that info here please e-mail to mal.leichter@comcast.net.

Don, Last year you said I had plenty of life left in the engine. I am wondering if I ought to be thinking of replacing it. Need to get to a point where I can traust it again.

HELP PLEASE!!!

Mal Leichter
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  #2   IP: 70.71.168.101
Old 05-28-2007, 10:46 AM
hinters hinters is offline
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Hi Mal
I have experienced some of your frustrations and here is my $.02 worth:
1. Do you add fuel stabilizer when you fill up?
Old fuel could be your problem..especially early in the
season when you have just recommissioned....I never
add fuel without it anymore.
2. Starbrite (and others) have a product to absorb any
water that might be in the fuel so that it will just burn
through the system...I also add it with every fill.
3. I also add a little Marvel Mystery Oil at each fill just
because it seems like a good idea.
Since I have started these habits I have had no further
problems with unexplained stalling.
If you have an engine with 110 Lbs. in each cylinder and decide to go diesel let me know....I would kill for that much compression!
Good luck with it!
Cheers
Pat
1972 Ericson 35-II
Lion's Den
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  #3   IP: 69.138.78.82
Old 05-28-2007, 02:39 PM
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MikeB.330 MikeB.330 is offline
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Sounds like a very dirty fuel tank. you yard should have someone they use to clean out tanks. If your tank is made of fiberglass you may end up having to replace it. The new fuel we are using now tends to turn it to jelly..

Mike
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  #4   IP: 38.118.52.41
Old 05-30-2007, 09:26 AM
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Don Moyer Don Moyer is offline
 
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Mal,

Conceptually, you need to get away from focusing so diligently on your engine. With 110 psi compression on each cylinder and presumably good oil pressure, your engine does indeed have a lot of life left in it. But the engine is only one part of a total power system that includes a fuel supply system, an electrical system, an exhaust system, and a cooling water system
- all (or at least most) of which are located remotely from the engine.

The best time to discover what shuts an engine down is to troubleshoot and discover the reason why it won't start after it shuts down, which is presumably the same reason. Folks are probably tired of seeing this simple little guide I'm attaching to this email, but it should get you to a better understanding of which system is causing your problem. With your marina reporting a history of water in the fuel, I'd skip to the fuel section of the attached guide.

In fact, even before using the boat again, and assuming that you can access the main passage plug in the bottom of the carburetor, I'd remove it and catch the fuel that drains out of the bottom of the carburetor. If you find any water coming out with the fuel, this would be a smoking gun.

Still on the theme of fuel contamination, I'd remove the pick-up tube from the tank and inspect it for a clogged screen or signs of corrosion that could result in a small air leak. I'd then remove the fuel line directly at the carburetor (or just ahead of an inline polishing filter if installed) and pump a quart or so of fuel into a clean jar as rapidly as possible. This will mobilize any water or other contamination that might be trying to move through your system.

I'd then re-read the technical note on our web site titled "Fuel-related shutdowns", install a rubber priming bulb just downstream from the tank and pressure check the system for any tiny air leak. After all that, a good water separating fuel filter and an inline polishing filter should insure a good fuel supply.

Don
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File Type: pdf Non-starting checklist.pdf (11.6 KB, 829 views)
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  #5   IP: 71.161.71.108
Old 05-30-2007, 11:07 AM
matthewgvt matthewgvt is offline
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Olm

Give Old Lyme Marina a try. I hear they do good work.

-Matt
Salem, Mass
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  #6   IP: 66.65.74.249
Old 05-30-2007, 12:26 PM
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CalebD CalebD is offline
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The experts have given you some good advice

that rings true with my experience (fuel stabilizer, MM oil etc) along with some details that I am glad to know for future reference.
The only detail I will add (and I hope I don't get shot down too hard for this) is that I keep a can of ether (starting fluid) handy in case the engine does not want to start up quickly. I know some will say that spraying ether on the air intake is a bad idea because it means that you are trying to bypass (hide) an existing problem so I would not recommend using it habitually. I used it when we first started up this season and have not needed to again (knock wood).
One reason to justify using ether to get the engine to turn over quickly is that continual cranking of the engine (without starting) can cause water to get into the engine which is worse than using a little ether. I am not sure how Don feels about this but I don't mind carrying yet one more type of explosive aboard if it can help get my old A4 to turn over (in an emergency or not).
My uncle was a fly-boy in WW II and he told me that pilots in those days swore by the use of ether. The theory is that when the ether burns in the cylindar it helps to burn up any varnish or other crud that could potentially drop them from the sky. It is because of this 'theory' that I like the occasional use of ether on my A4 to clean the cylindars, rings and valves etc.

Last edited by CalebD; 05-30-2007 at 01:27 PM.
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  #7   IP: 38.118.52.41
Old 05-31-2007, 09:21 AM
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Don Moyer Don Moyer is offline
 
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I have no problem with occasional use of starting fluid used diagnostically, but it should not be used as a substitute for a properly adjusted choke.

Don
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  #8   IP: 71.235.152.37
Old 06-03-2007, 06:06 AM
Mal Leichter Mal Leichter is offline
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I am Armed with my empty fuel cans and and portable electric fuel pump. I removed the Fuel filter yesterday (canister type) and there was a noticable water in the canister. I have a 26 gallon tank but rarely go through more than 10 - 12 gallons a season. At this point I am going to rule out the gas by emptying it and putting in fresh gas.

Don I saved your document THANKS for the info. Will d

Several of you reer to gas treatment. All I have been doing is putting in a stabilizer at the end of the season. What products do you suggest and how often.

Do you suggest Removing all fuel at the end of the season or topping off the tank and using stabilizer???

Will let you know how I make out

Thanks to EVERYONE for all the input
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  #9   IP: 69.118.138.201
Old 06-03-2007, 09:54 AM
tenders tenders is offline
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What-all did they replace in a new "ignition system and fuel delivery system" for $1200?

All this stalling with a relatively new carburetor and attention paid to the gas makes me think: bad fuel pump. It sounds to me like yours has lost its mojo and can no longer supply a sufficient amount of fuel to an engine under load. Isn't speeding up, slowing down, and stalling a sign of fuel starvation? Will the engine run a long time at idle?

Ether is great in a shop but man-oh-man is it ever dangerous on board. It is different than gasoline. You atomize ether and spray it in an uncontrolled manner into an engine that isn't working right for unknown reasons, surrounded by a closed bilge, for the purpose of igniting other fuel. Yikes!
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Old 06-04-2007, 06:01 PM
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CalebD CalebD is offline
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Mal, I too own a Tartan 27' (#328) from 1967 with the original A4 engine. Her previous owner told me to always try to keep the fuel tank topped off (especially for the winter) and to add stabilizer to the fuel in the fall. I tend to add stabilizer whenever I add gas as it is a large tank (20 gals or so) and the gas will sit for a long time before being used. I also add some lead substitute although I am not certain that this practice is really neccessary. I also add MMOil to the fuel tank.
Today's gas with 10 percent ethanol has an even shorter shelf life than the old leaded gas or so I have read.
There is some debate over whether to empty the gas tank or top it off when over wintering. One theory which supports topping off the tank is any air in the tank can contain moisture which will condense and get into the fuel. I would think that leaving the tank empty would leave a lot of condensation in there come springtime so I tend to top off the tank. We left the tank about 3/4 full last season and still had no problems (knock wood).
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  #11   IP: 71.235.152.37
Old 06-12-2007, 06:28 AM
Mal Leichter Mal Leichter is offline
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Well it was finally a decent day on Sunday and I was able to get to the marina.

I bought a universal electric fuel pump and 10 feet of fuel line and emptied the fuel tank into 5 gallon gas cans. I was surprised to see the the stainless steel tank was almost spotless inside. I could see some small areas od sediment so I pour gas back in the tank 3 or 4 times to stir it up and them pumped it back out. I removed the fuel pickup and it appeared to be clean and clear. I put everyrhing back together and poured 5 gallons of fresh gas back inro the empty fuel tank. I emptied the almost new filter to get out as much as the old gas as I could.

I started the engine and it ran OK but started to do it's speed up and slowing down without touching the throttle. The local SeaTow Captain suggested that once I got fresh gas in it to run the engine at a high speed once the engine got up to temp to "suck out" anything that might be in the carburator. After about 4 or 5 minutes the enging was coming up to temp so i picked up the speed of the engine. After about a minute the sound of the engine changed and the engine was running like its old self. At that poit I figured I might as well try it out so I dropped the mooring line and took off. I crusied for about 45 minutes. It Seems Fine!!!

I guess we will see what happens when I start it again on Saturday. When the Carurator was rebuilt last summer the mechanic said ther was a lot of wear in it what ever that means. Might it be smart to buy a new carb incase all the sediment was not sucked through the existing carb so that if it has to come out it will be replaced with a new carb without any "wear".. If so are there multiple carbs that fit the A4 and if there are what information do I need to get to ensure I get the right one.

THANKS everyone for the suggestions. With any luck maybe we are back on the right track

Mal Leichter
Tartan 1979 SKYE #585
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  #12   IP: 71.235.152.37
Old 07-15-2007, 09:07 AM
Mal Leichter Mal Leichter is offline
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Resolution Finally

We went through the process of replacing the carburetor. That didn't help. The boat yard "played for the next 2 weeks and they finally called me and said they gave up and didn't know what to do next. They also told me that the most recent activity was that they couldn't even start the engine cold. The said they went through the ignition system cleaned the points, reset them and it started with the same issues. MIND YOU they replaced all the ignition maintenance parts in May when they commissioned the engine.

To make a long story short I went down 2 weeks ago with a new set of points and a new condenser, removed the old points that were burned so there was almost no pad left on the movable arm and the they were blue. I cleaned the plate in the distributor and replaced and set the new points and gapped them.

I started the engine and it ran GREAT. Have started it cold on 3 more days and the engine runs fine.

In the process of going through the ignition system I noticed that the engine was running rich. The new spark plugs were black. The carb adjustment seemed to be fine even though we would get a strong smell of fuel in the cabin on occassion. My fuel pump had been replaced by the boat yard 18 months ago. I checked the specs of the pump and it was a 4 to 7 PSI pump. I spoke to Ken at the MMI parts line and found it should be a 2 PSI pump.

Ken has been a great and patient resource and has helped me through the last 2 months with guidance and encouragement and has been a calming source through the past 2 months. THANKS KEN!!

I guess the moral of the story is if you want something done do it yourself!!! I will maintain my engine from now on!!!

At t
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Last edited by Don Moyer; 07-15-2007 at 09:51 AM.
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  #13   IP: 38.118.52.41
Old 07-15-2007, 09:47 AM
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Don Moyer Don Moyer is offline
 
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Good for you, Mal! Maybe you should hang up your own shingle and post it in our "Good Guys" section.

Don
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Old 07-16-2007, 04:08 AM
Mal Leichter Mal Leichter is offline
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THANKS Don But I'll leave that for the experts!!!
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