Just another overhaul thread

[Surcouf]

Well that was after we lowered the engine into the dinghy, went from the mooring to the dock, and only then realized we had neglected step B. We borrowed some lumber from a dock redecking project and made a ramp to pull the engine up on the dock and then used some round wood to pyramid-builder style roll it to the tree. It was quite a day!

I would never dared to lower the beast into a dinghy... pretty impressive (risky) to do it, I tip my hat to your courage

[joe_db]

I would never dared to lower the beast into a dinghy... pretty impressive (risky) to do it, I tip my hat to your courage

My last swap I was at the dock, but we used the crane and a float instead of hauling it down the pier.

[Surcouf]

My last swap I was at the dock, but we used the crane and a float instead of hauling it down the pier.

I guess the Coasties would have a hard time considering an A4 as an acceptable PFD... great pic!!

[joe_db]

I guess the Coasties would have a hard time considering an A4 as an acceptable PFD... great pic!!

Best part was the old rusty engine went through the marina 20 minutes prior and then everyone sees this one go by and we get comments like "Wow, how did you fix it so fast" LOL

[Surcouf]

Fun part

So could not resist and went to spend a couple hours on the engine in the garage...

Long story short:
- head: all head bolts are out, 5 studs came with.
- Exhaust manifold: 3/3 bolts out, 1 stud out
- spark plugs: 2 out «*clean*», 2 broken

so having own a old SAAB (rust bucket in Northeast) and a Peugeot (back in France) means that I also have all metrics tools. VERY useful to remove the rusty bolts: 11/16 too large? Switch down to 17mm. Rounded again? Switch to 5/8 (and a good hammer to put it on). Between PB Blaster (a lot over the last 4 hours), impact gun and long break bars, I was happily surprised to able to remove either all head bolts or studs. I was expecting much worse (maybe this is coming)... according to MM manual, winter is coming ....

Al was probably right on his first comment: after having brushed most of the head, it may be fine. Rust is a lot of flaking paint. I may be lucky here ...

i attach a few pictures, and after my questions

[Surcouf]

Questions

My questions:
- question 1: the engine stamps seems to be 031578 // 295369. Could that mean that engine is from 1978? I wonder if that engine is the original one? Not that I think that a «*matching number*» Catalina would have value suddenly, but I would like the story of repairing and installing back in the engine bay the original block...
- question 2: all 3 bolts are removed from the exhaust manifold, including one stud. But that b***** barely moves... even after 30 minutes of sweating / swearing / prying etc... it maybe moves 1/32*of an inch, maximum. Any trick / advice on how to remove the cranky exhaust manifold?
- question 3: and before anybody tells me «*if MM Manual tells so, just do it*»: should studs be removed first, right now, before the head?
- Question 4: stupid one, but this is my first time: should the two studs on the water thermostat housing also be removed ?

Thank you in advance for your expert opinion and answers!!!

So good progress to my mundane eyes, sad it is too late to open a beer.... but clearly in the mood for it. I know there are days ahead that will not be like this...

[edwardc]

Just a general comment: The lower ends of the studs protrude into the water jacket. They generally corrode off flush, giving you an indirect way to evaluate the remaining thickness of the water jacket walls. Three threads showing is considered to be the minimum. Less than that, and you will have problems with the studs pulling out while trying to torque them to spec. Looks like you have a good 5 threads showing, suggesting that you're in good shape

- question 1: the engine stamps seems to be 031578 // 295369. Could that mean that engine is from 1978?

Yes, the block was cast on March 15, 1978. The engine could have been assembled later than that. Serial number is 295369

- question 3: and before anybody tells me «*if MM Manual tells so, just do it*»: should studs be removed first, right now, before the head?

People do it both ways. It's easier to get the head off once the studs are out, but its easier to get the studs loose by gripping them in the center when the head is off. My preference is to get the head off first. YMMV

- Question 4: stupid one, but this is my first time: should the two studs on the water thermostat housing also be removed ?

Yes, they are also head studs.

[roadnsky]

So good progress to my mundane eyes, sad it is too late to open a beer....

Too late for beer?!
NEVER!

[wristwister]

Sercouf,

As I read through this thread, I'm not clear what your intention is here. Are you looking to do the absolute minimum just to get the engine running again, then put it back in the boat? Or are you looking to assure that all is well with the engine and it will run reliably for years to come? The difference between these two scenarios is whether or not you plow into the block the check out crank, journals, pistons, valves etc.. I went through this decision process a year and a half ago (see my rebuild thread) and ended up doing a full rebuild. For me, I just couldn't see going through the hassle of engine removal, partial repair, and re-installation with an engine that's still of questionable reliability. In my case, the full rebuild, including machine shop work and many parts from Moyer, ended up right around $1400, and the rebuild itself was quite simple (with several calls to Ken at Moyer of course).

If you're interested, I kept a detailed journal of the rebuild and I'd be happy to send that to you.

Good luck with your project!

[Surcouf]

Too late for beer?!
NEVER!

I tend to agree... it would have been a Friday or Saturday, it would have been a different story. But I guess that if I can find my Stud Extractor today, I will tonight bring the beer to the garage BEFORE starting, as a preventive measure

[Surcouf]

Sercouf,

As I read through this thread, I'm not clear what your intention is here. Are you looking to do the absolute minimum just to get the engine running again, then put it back in the boat? Or are you looking to assure that all is well with the engine and it will run reliably for years to come? The difference between these two scenarios is whether or not you plow into the block the check out crank, journals, pistons, valves etc.. I went through this decision process a year and a half ago (see my rebuild thread) and ended up doing a full rebuild. For me, I just couldn't see going through the hassle of engine removal, partial repair, and re-installation with an engine that's still of questionable reliability. In my case, the full rebuild, including machine shop work and many parts from Moyer, ended up right around $1400, and the rebuild itself was quite simple (with several calls to Ken at Moyer of course).

If you're interested, I kept a detailed journal of the rebuild and I'd be happy to send that to you.

Good luck with your project!

you are spot on. My issue is that I am likely to sell / give away my boat next Spring. I am stupidly attached to this boat and ready to invest a lot of my own sweat and time , and a little dough to put back a "boat-original", good running, rust-prevented engine in this C27. But I am having a hard time coming to the terms in throwing an additional 1500$ into my hole-in-the-water that I will not enjoy anymore after next June. And what you are pointing your finger to is going to materialize very quickly. This is what my base scope is for now in my head:
- remove head, all studs etc...
- remove side plate, clean inside
- remove valve plate clean all gunk etc..
- remove oil pan, inspect + clean
- carburetor and water pump inspection + rebuilt
- the most time consuming: treat all rust and re-paint block

Not in my scope for now, but could change quickly (maybe just because I love to tear things appart that I do not now yet how to re-assemble)
- Should I get there and not remove the valves? Would be a shame not to change the springs and clean valves head now that everything is exposed
- any kind of inspection / work on reverse gear (this ones scares me way more than anything else, it is irrational)
- any kind of oil gasket around shafts?
- all the rest I do not even suspect yet
This is where the expert opinions will come very handy....

[wristwister]

Understood Sercouf. Just a couple things I'd suggest adding to your list:

Set up a simple engine stand with necessary hoses, bucket, battery etc. to be able to run and troubleshoot the engine in your garage (don't want to get it all the way back in the boat to find out something's still off kilter).

Muriatic acid soak and flush of all internal water passages (cleans out internal rust and scale, pretty simple to do once the engine is running on the stand above).

[wristwister]

Oh, and if you do need another head, let me know. I've got two in pretty good shape, be happy to send one to you.

[Surcouf]

And of course... 2 had to wreck the party mood

[Surcouf]

And Moses opened the seas.... Book of JB chapter A4

So... first my new best friend: The Craftsman Stud Extractor. I was really impressed! After spending another 20 minutes trying to get the exhaust manifold out, I decided to use that tool to try to get the stud out; there was only 3-4 threads out. And the extractor was able to grab that, and take the stud out. And the manifold went out easily once maintained only by the remaining stud. OK. next.

Fuel pump, OK. Coil, one broken screw in the block. Damn. Igniter was next; we stopped before breaking that screw, doused with PB Blaster, will come back to it tomorrow.

And next was the block. Yesterday, this morning and coming back to work, I carefully sprayed each stud with PB Blaster, over-filling the gaps between the studs and the head. So now, no more excuse?
I started to use the stud extractor on the head studs. It worked very well: this 16$ tool NEVER slipped on any studs. I was extremely surprised when the first 8 came out like a dream.... and I was starting to dream too!! But this is no «*Miracle on A4*» and a first one snapped. I should have stopped before breaking it, but I was getting over confident. The very last one broke too, but we were really over-forcing it too. This last one (the corner one on the thermostat m) was super tight so no PB Blaster could go down...
So a very good tool all in all. I was very impressed. I have no MIG welder to weld a bolt and try to remove them at this point, but I think it would have been useless: both studs broke below the extractor level, and without heating with a torch (impossible with the head on), I do not think it would have helped much.

And now the fun pry-pry, tap-tap. My first. Took us 2 hours. I am VERY confident it would have lasted 30 minutes if it was not for these 2 studs, that were super-super tight on the head. I am not sure if I am the only one... but if «*tap-tap, pry-pry*» sounds nearly romantic, boarder line fine mechanic art, what occurred in my garage tonight was not pretty!! A complete improvisation that saw a multitude of different instruments and tools be part of a wild, angry, creative and disorganized ballet whose only goal was to take the f****** head of this block!!!!! A large number of screwdrivers, putty knife, painter scrappers, a chisel, à brick, wood logs, hammers, automobile plastic tools etc... were successively used, modified, broken, until the head finally decided it had me pay the proper respect to its stubbornness.

If I had to make one comment to the Moyer Marine manual, it is that they should remember that some people (like me) who use it may be completely dumb, and forget that somewhere in the middle of that head gasket you are trying to wack/pry etc... there is AT LEAST one valve that stands on the way!!! And so special care should be given not to go too far in with your tools...

So head is now out. There was absolutely NO WAY this could have taken place in the engine bay, and doing it inside the boat would have been a nightmare. Very glad I dropped that initial idea!!

Anyway, pictures, and bedtime! Questions tomorrow!