Crankcase Filling with Water

[ARA]

Hi, I am new to the forum, new to sailing and new to the A4. I got my first boat, a '78 Catalina 27 in Oct. Motor ran good in the fall. Had it winterized by the marina, and it ran good after de-winterizing about 3 weeks ago.

Took it out last weekend, motored out of slips and down channel to lake (about 20ish minutes), sailed for a few hours, and motored back (another 15 min). Went to check the bilge before leaving and it was full of sludge. Open motor compartment and the sludge was sprayed all over.

Drained .75 gal of water from crankcase, and as much sludge as I could get out. Added oil and engine flush, started motor and after about 1-2 minutes, water is pouring out of the breather/oil fill, enough water that it looks like someone turned on a hose. Engine runs great, no trouble starting, or running problems.

I removed and inspected the water pump, it looks like it is brand new. I ran a compression test this morning. All cylinders were exactly 120 psi.

What should be my next step? Is there any tests I can run while the motor is still in the boat, or should it be pulled out for further inspection?

Any help would be greatly appreciated.
I'm ok with doing all my own auto work, but new the boats in general, so try not to go too far over my head. Thanks!

[Dave Neptune]

ARA, not good at all. About the only thing that comes to mind is a water jacket has eroded away and is filling the crankcase. Like at the base of the water jacket behind the side cover plate or possibly the valve galley. I'd bet on behind the cover plate.
A pressure check of the block is in order but most likely a waste of time as there just aren't a lot of other possibilities.
It is not the manifold as it would fill the cylinders and they are running fine which means that side of things are not getting wet!!!
Hope I'm wrong here.

Dave Neptune

[Whippet]

I have done the pressure test Dave speaks of, and I am still a "tenderfoot" A4 mechanic, so it is not hard to do with an auto tire valve, bike pump w gauge. Other approaches too. Various descriptions in this forum.

That should prove the "not good" prognosis offered by Dr. Neptune. But as he says, expected outcome may already be foregone.

Sorry to hear your troubles. I'm still chasing small amounts of water in oil, so i feel a bit of your pain.

[JOHN COOKSON]

Even though the water pump appears to be new it is my #1 suspect until proven otherwise.

Here's what to do:
There is a rubber impeller mounted on a stainless steel shaft. Pull the shaft out of the water pump and inspect the shaft for scoring in the seal areas. Next push the shaft through each seal individually from both ends of the pump. If there is not a tight fit at each seal the seals are shot.

TRUE GRIT

[ARA]

I was really hoping for something simple like the water pump. But it's in such good condition I don't see how it could let water into the crankcase. I have completely disassembled it and it feels like the shaft almost pops from the suction on the seals they are so tight. Plus I can see the shiny shaft through the clean (I didn't clean them) weep holes. Wouldn't water come out there before being forced into the crankcase?

I think I will do the bike pump pressure test but I am positive it will fail miserably.

What are the chances the marina did something wrong with the winterization? Is it possible for it to take a couple hours of run time to show up? I never even checked the oil before taking the boat out for the first time this year. I was just so anxious and figured "it's only and hour, I'll change the oil tomorrow". Now I am so mad at myself.

I have been in contact with the marina, they are so far nice, but also extremely slow even taking a look at the boat. Can't tell if they are dragging their feet, or just in the middle of launch season like they said.

Thank you all for the help.

[Whippet]

Let us know if any confusion on test set-up. The water pump can be part of the pressure test as well. Last time i did mine, i blocked raw water hose leading to water pump inlet and did valve/bike pump at the t-stat housing. Then did manifold as second step. where you located?

[Dave Neptune]

ARA, do the bicycle test , however before installing the valve just blow into it or use the blow side of a small shop vac you'll probably hear it by just blowing in or feel it with the S/V at the "filler". I don't think were talking about a small leak unfortunately.

On the plus side as it is not a cylinder wall it may be easily "JB electron beam welded" and that could be a good fix. If done I would advise biting the bullet and converting to FWC and enjoy using it soon!

Dave Neptune

[sastanley]

ARA, First thing...welcome...

Second, if the marina possibly made a mistake, I would not let them touch the engine ever again. This is the time to tackle this head on yourself, so you can learn the motor.

I knew car motors before the boat motor, but a few years ago, did not know anything about A-4's...you'll learn just fine.

Do not freak out if it is a bad block..it is just money..remember..you've bought a hole in the water you pour money into. - We can help you maybe pour in less.

[edwardc]

Originally Posted by ARA

What are the chances the marina did something wrong with the winterization? ...

If they don't know A-4s, I'd say this is a distinct possibility. On raw-water cooled A-4s, the thermostat should be removed and the bypass hose pinched off before winterizing in order to insure that the block gets thoroughly flushed out with antifreeze. Failure to do this can leave water in the block and put it at risk of freeze damage.

Originally Posted by ARA

...Is it possible for it to take a couple hours of run time to show up? ...

Definitely. I had a cracked block the first season I owned the boat as a result of improper winterizing by the previous owner. It didn't show up until midway through the season when it opened wide and caused massive water intrusion.

[Al Schober]

Oh wow - bummer!
We A4 folk fight to keep water out of the oil tank. Kinda like the submarine folk fight to keep water out of the people tank.
Kinda obvious - not winterized properly. Recourse with boatyard? You can take them to court (ouch) or talk to them nicely - perhaps they'll admit their mistake and spring for half the cost of a Moyer rebuild. That as I see it would be the 'minimum pain' point for both you and the yard.
Hey, yards do make mistakes and they must be held accountable - but don't feel you have to put them out of business over this. If you play your cards wrong, you could end up owning the yard!

[Derek]

ARA, I experienced a very similar experience last week, with a successful new season engine start then, after 30 minutes running, the complete engine flooded with water. After consulting with Don Moyer, I discovered a steel plug between the valve chamber and water jacket had corroded through. Apparently, late models are affected (post engine serial number 194000). Access to this plug is gained by removing the carb then the valve cover. The plug is situated in the very center of the water jacket behind the valve springs. The corroded plug was removed using an Allen wrench and a BRASS pipe plug installed. After numerous oil changes to remove all water, my A4 appears to back in good health. My sincere thanks go out to Don Moyer, especially since I initially anticipated a cracked block. A rebuilt engine would have been my only option.

[Whippet]

Hi Derek

Great photo. Never saw this view of the late model A4 design defect in all its glory.

Did you have to re-tap the threads before installing the brass plug? Was carb removal essential to access? I can appreciate gives easier viewing.

I have a long check-list (courtesy of Neil) to search for my more minor water incursion that is a head-scratcher since i twice passed the pressure test. This steel plug could be on the list since my serial number fits the profile although inconsistent w pressure test.

I'm really glad you got her solved and you have a full summer of sailing ahead.

[Derek]

Whippet: The carb needs to removed to facilitate an easier removal of the valve cover. The hole threads were not damaged and the brass plug screwed right in. During my trouble shooting I undertook the bicycle pump pressure test and could hear air escaping through the oil filler tube. The steel pug had corroded from the rear (water) side which left a one eighth inch hole.

Derek
C&C 30
BHYC Oakville, Ontario

[ARA]

Derek, Thank you for the pic. I have read on this forum about the plug, but that pic gives me a clear idea what I'm looking for.

Work has been crazy, so the first chance I will be back to the boat will probably be Sunday. First I'm going to pressure test it to confirm the leak is internal. I'm not sure my serial number, but if it is above 194k I will definitely pull the valve cover. If there's a chance its something besides a cracked block I'm definitely going to check it out!

[Whippet]

Derek

Thanks for pointers in case i have to go there one day.

Glad of your happy ending. We're planning a sail to Oakville in a few weeks so maybe we will see you out there. Hope you like your C&C. The 27 is great to sail, and I'm sure the same with your 30.

[Mo]

Originally Posted by Derek

Whippet: The carb needs to removed to facilitate an easier removal of the valve cover. The hole threads were not damaged and the brass plug screwed right in. During my trouble shooting I undertook the bicycle pump pressure test and could hear air escaping through the oil filler tube. The steel pug had corroded from the rear (water) side which left a one eighth inch hole.

Derek
C&C 30
BHYC Oakville, Ontario

Good to know.

[ARA]

Ok, my serial no. is 203182 model no. 5101. That is post 194k. So does this mean I definitely have a plug under the valve cover, or that I might have one? They sure didn't make it easy to work on the carb side of the motor. Not sure if there's even room to get my head in there to see anything. I better add a mirror to my list.

I also got the Schrader valve, gauge, etc together for pressure testing. Hoping to skip out of work a little early tomorrow, otherwise first thing Sunday. Fingers crossed for a bad plug...

[Dave Neptune]

ARA, take a good look and consider an access port to work "through". Many have done this type of "mod" and it really makes any future endeavors that much easier too. My engine is tight in a box however access from the top is good so I remove the manifold when working on the valves. This certainly opens up some space.
Also as I recall (so I'm probably wrong the 60's uknow) not all blocks were equipped with the "plug" in the run of those blocks. Perhaps someone can set this notion straight.

Dave Neptune

[ndutton]

#194185 = no plug

[ARA]

So the results are in. As expected the pressure test was an epic fail. So I removed the valve cover, carb and exhaust manifold in place. I figured if there is no plug, I'll be pulling the motor anyway, so why make the extra work.

Valve cover removed, mirror to see, and there right in the middle is a plug. One push on the pump, and water sprays out of the center of the plug. After removing the carb and manifold, a quick trip to home depot for a new brass plug, and reassembly, pressure test again. Passed with flying colors. Pumped out most of the sludge tonight, and ran the motor with some fresh oil. Still more sludge, and at least 2 or 3 more oil changes tomorrow, but the motor seems ok.

You can't wipe the smile off my face tonight! I have to give a HUGE thank you to everyone here. Without this forum I might have lost months, and who knows how many thousands of dollars. I will post up some pics of the plug tomorrow, I forgot it in the boat. Thanks everybody!

[Administrator]

This was the kind of problem that has doomed more than one boat to a trip to the landfill when its owner gave up on the engine, and thus the boat.

Way to go!

Bill

[Nick duBois]

Originally Posted by Administrator

This was the kind of problem that has doomed more than one boat to a trip to the landfill when its owner gave up on the engine, and thus the boat.

Way to go!

Bill

I can not count how many times this forum and the wonderful folks here have come to my aid over the years. For people with limited mechanical aptitude or limited knowledge of A4 engines this forum is a God send. Keep up the awesome work!!

Nick

[Don Moyer]

In response to an earlier question, while it seems to be generally true that later engines (circa mid 1970s and later) are more prone to have one of these plugs installed, it's unfortunately not possible to predict whether or not you will have one of these plugs based on serial numbers, or any other specific engine markings.

My understanding is that in the 1970s, the inner sand cores of the blocks which formed the water jackets were suspended on something that looked like safety wire. The safety wire would quickly become part of the molten alloy, but it survived long enough to hold the sand cores in place until the alloy was all in the mold. For whatever reason, the safety wire (or whatever the official wire really was called) in this particular location would sometimes survive the influx of molten alloy and leave behind a pin hole where the plugs are now showing up. Universal's solution was to install a plug to seal the pin hole.

I'm a little concerned over hearing of this second discovery of a plug in this location. As I told Derek as he was discovering his plug, his was only the third such plug I heard of in almost 25 years. To hear of a 4th plug so soon on the heals of the third is a little disconcerting.

The good news is that (access issues not-with-standing) it's relatively easy to inspect your valve chamber for the presence of such a plug and to remove and replace it with a brass one, particularly during an engine overhaul.

The best indication a failure of such a plug is a lot of water showing up in the oil pan almost overnight. The volume of water is typically more than you would intuitively expect from a crack. Don

[Whippet]

Hi ARA

Most pleased that you successfully performed pressure test and that Derek had this recent experience to give you the clue. What is more amazing is that Don has seen this so rarely. Neptune was at your side on this one.

Happy sailing now that you have months ahead.

[tenders]

I don't think this topic has ever come up before on the board, and to have it mentioned, troubleshot, and solved within a matter of days is amazing.

As Bill says, how many engines and/or boats are sleeping with the fishes for want of this $2 part and a 30-second read the situation?

WOW!