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  #26   IP: 67.78.241.34
Old 12-24-2011, 09:23 AM
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Your surveyor is presumptuous and should be replaced. Just because something is no longer "approved" by the Coast Guard does not mean it is without value. The biggest problem with CO2 units is that they must be inspected and re-tagged every year, which is a hassle. That is why I also carry the dry chemical - so the Coast Guard can check it off. IMO CO2 should be the first line of defense on boat fires and the chemical used only as a last resort. BTW, I put out a carb fire on the starting line at the drags with the CO2 I carried on my roll bar - the owner was grateful that he could simply restart and make his run.
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Old 12-24-2011, 09:30 AM
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You're right. CO2 is great stuff. Just be careful on AC electrical fires. When the nozzle develops frost on it current can travel right up to your hand. I saw it happen once on a 400 HZ motor generator. That guy got the shock of his life.

I did find out that I can inspect my own cylinders. Coast guard said so too. I'm more than qualified I know but I don't know if it applies to everyone. I just have to check them and sign the tags. Also, Not all of them have to have tags like my surveyor said. Only the minimum required by the coast guard does. I'm doing all of them though.
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  #28   IP: 75.197.204.147
Old 12-24-2011, 10:04 AM
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Caveat Emptor

I'm not going to pick through this thread post by post, but I think there's a whole lot of stuff here which, to the best of my knowledge, simply isn't accurate.

Suggest you start with the CG requirements, add to that some consideration of the layout of your boat, how you use it, any unusual hazards aboard, any experience you may have which is relevant to firefighting, etc., etc., and go from there.

Bill
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  #29   IP: 67.78.241.34
Old 12-24-2011, 10:21 AM
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For a 30 ft sailboat, class 2, the requirement is two B I (5 lb) units. An automatic engine room unit can fill the requirement for one of those. I am not aware of any rule that excludes co2 from being acceptable.
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Old 12-24-2011, 10:48 AM
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Oh Lordy Bill, your accuracy caution sent me scrambling to re-read my posts to make sure I hadn't stumbled. Good caution though, keeps us on our toes.

In my industry we are required to meet minimum standards. There is no restriction on installations beyond the minimum. I would think once the USCG fire extinguishing requirements are met as for quantity, type and certification date you can have anything additional you want. Their requirements are minimums.

Example: When my flares and day signals expire I don't discard them, I keep them just in case. Sure, I'll buy flares with current dates to satisfy the requirements but if all Hell breaks loose I'll be able to put on a fireworks show like no other using the expired but hopefully still functional flares in addition.
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  #31   IP: 24.224.206.117
Old 12-24-2011, 10:49 AM
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Smile Hanley is correct.

Those are the requirements here in Canada also Hanley. 5 lb may work if used correctly...if not, it's over because it's spent.

This one was thought to be an electrical fire as far as I know. It was my friend Phil's boat...a C&C 30 like mine. (my boat is directly behind her on the other marina. The fire wrote another off and another severely damaged. The heat also damaged the bow of the two boats in the direction that you see the smoke drift. Memers of Fleet Diving unit dumped 4 5lb'ers from neighboring boats into this before it even got this bad. Once the fiberglass gets a start its bad news. They pulled one boat away but couldn't go back due to the heat. It actually grew more and more until the arrival of the fire tug. She went out when filled with water (by fire tug) and sank. Recoved a few days later and was burned to about 18 inches above the waterline.

Fiberglass will flame up again and again after its knocked down because of the heat generated, it's a very toxic chemical fire in every sense of the word...I would caution everyone not to under estimate a fiberglass fire....get it out.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jtgwa2-ONN8
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Last edited by Mo; 12-24-2011 at 10:59 AM.
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  #32   IP: 24.224.206.117
Old 12-25-2011, 01:41 PM
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Smile Just read one I didn't note earlier.

If using Halon everyone should be out of the space. In the case of sailboat fire, the engine compartment should be well enough enclosed to
A) activate the system
B) get everyone on deck in fresh air.

Once Halon is released there is no buffer zone on breathing....it interfers with the the O2...now chemically altered so that it can't be part of the circle of fire. As it does this, the same O2 cannot be used by humans to enable respirations. One may make the decision to activate to knock down a fire and then rescue people in that space...they will then need supportive or advanced life support depending the amount of time in that environment.

In an engine room, the arm goes off (lights flash and all that good stuff)...the engineers and stokers are trained to react and know that halon is cutting loose....then the halon is activated...Systems are designed to allow people to escape the engine room. Once the fire is knocked down a rescue is done ... people that did not get out....some may have been injured in the initial emergency situation.

Halon is all or nothing...it's always all on a ship or boat. If the boat goes you have nothing.
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"Odyssey"
1976 C&C 30 MKI

The pessimist complains about the wind.
The optimist expects it to change.
The realist adjusts the sails.
...Sir William Arthur Ward.

Last edited by Mo; 12-25-2011 at 05:37 PM.
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  #33   IP: 71.181.37.6
Old 04-18-2012, 06:30 PM
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Maurice's remote fire extinquisher

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maurice View Post
Neil,
That's about as good as it gets. Prevention is the key.

I'd like to make a suggestion about extinguisher placement in the boat. I've seen lots in the galley area where galley fires are anticipated.

Placement of Extinguishers:
Extinguishers should be located in areas where you may access them easily while leaving the boat. The first thing to is move to a safe area, grab an extinguisher then attack the fire. No good trying to haul an extinguisher off the rack when flames are licking at your face.

Fire safe training has always dictated that you leave the area and do not return to fight the fire. If you are along side make the decision to fight or not and call 911. If you are at sea you have no choice...you need to get that fire out. Once fiberglass gets going it's hard to put out...so get that fire out fast. And you will have to do it.

Extinguisher locations on Odyssey.

-10 lbs....base of mast
-10 lbs....stb lazarette. Stb lazarette is enclosed with hole through bulhead and extinguisher nozed pointed in engine compartment through a hole. This also counts as my outside extinguisher. Because it is down in a sealed lazarette, fire in the boat will not interfere with my access to it. If I pull the pin and squeeze it will empty into the engine compartment and under cockpit area. If I need to pull it out and unload it into the boat it comes out just by lifting straight up...nozzel also will come...I've tried it.
-10 lbs....V birth Prt side...for exiting the forward hatch. Can then make a decision if you want to fight fire from there and extinguisher is available.
-10 lbs... stb settee area.
-5 lb in closet stb side...came with the boat and I left them where it was.
-5 lb at base of steps....came with the boat and I left them where it was.

I think I paid either $39 or $49 (can't remember now) for each 10 lb extinguisher at Costco. So let's say fire system cost $200. Really not that bad.

Hi Maurice

Is it possible to see some pictures /and or diagram of this remotely activate fire extinguisher? I am much interested .
in your setup.

Thanks and Best Regards

Art
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  #34   IP: 24.224.206.117
Old 04-18-2012, 07:17 PM
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Smile Pic tomorrow Art.

Will get you one in the morning Art. It`s just an extinguisher standing in the corner of stb lazarette and it`s nozzel is over a bulkhead. Once you pull the pin and squeeze the handle it dumps it`s contentents into the engine compartment area. On my boat none of this is not completely air tight and I imagine the powder would come out around the steps etc....but I think a fire would be put out...if that 10 pounder is unloaded in there it can`t help but knock down a fire.
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"Odyssey"
1976 C&C 30 MKI

The pessimist complains about the wind.
The optimist expects it to change.
The realist adjusts the sails.
...Sir William Arthur Ward.
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  #35   IP: 174.56.38.27
Old 04-18-2012, 07:47 PM
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Some great info here. I can't help but wonder how a forum of diesel owners and fire prevention would compare......
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  #36   IP: 71.181.37.6
Old 04-18-2012, 08:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maurice View Post
Will get you one in the morning Art. It`s just an extinguisher standing in the corner of stb lazarette and it`s nozzel is over a bulkhead. Once you pull the pin and squeeze the handle it dumps it`s contentents into the engine compartment area. On my boat none of this is not completely air tight and I imagine the powder would come out around the steps etc....but I think a fire would be put out...if that 10 pounder is unloaded in there it can`t help but knock down a fire.
Thanks Maurice

Appreciated very much

Just wanted to see the details, and importantly, see how I could install
something similiar in my Tartan 34 which would both operate fool proof and
just as importantly, not be able to be accidentally triggered.

Best Regards

Art
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  #37   IP: 75.243.49.187
Old 04-19-2012, 07:04 AM
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I hope it's obvious that an airtight, or nearly so, engine compartment, won't work.

Bill
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  #38   IP: 71.181.37.6
Old 04-19-2012, 07:53 AM
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Smile

Hi Bill

Looking for a "air tight " accidental deployment solution , Not a air tight compartment.



Best Regards
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  #39   IP: 184.0.176.66
Old 04-19-2012, 08:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Administrator View Post
I hope it's obvious that an airtight, or nearly so, engine compartment, won't work.

Bill
Good point. I have seen some that were far too tight. Even with a good blower running it is necessary to provide an inlet for fresh air. In the event of fire the automatic halon discharge will still fill the space.
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Old 04-19-2012, 08:07 AM
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Smile Extinquishers.

Art.

Attached you will find some pics of the extinguishers etc on the boat. The goal for me is to have them available for use if required, but I don't want to see a fire extinguisher in every direction...so I've sort of tucked them into easy reach spots.

The next one will have the video of the engine compartment.
Attached Images
     
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"Odyssey"
1976 C&C 30 MKI

The pessimist complains about the wind.
The optimist expects it to change.
The realist adjusts the sails.
...Sir William Arthur Ward.
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  #41   IP: 24.224.206.117
Old 04-19-2012, 08:20 AM
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Fire extinguisher for engine area.

Fire extinguisher for engine compartment area.
Attached Images
 
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"Odyssey"
1976 C&C 30 MKI

The pessimist complains about the wind.
The optimist expects it to change.
The realist adjusts the sails.
...Sir William Arthur Ward.

Last edited by Mo; 05-17-2013 at 09:25 PM.
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Old 04-19-2012, 08:22 AM
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Hi Mo

Thanks for the pictures.

I (possibly mistakenly) thought you had some sort of remote cord attached
to a extinquisher which could be pulled from the cockpit and set off the
extinquisher in the engine compartment ? That is what I was hoping to see
pictures off.

Best Regards and Thanks

Art

Oops I missed your video now I see how you accomplish things.
What I was hoping for was a remote string on a extinguisher and possibly a 3 or 4 ft hose on the business end so that
the extinguisher could be fired remotely and be directed into a very small engine compartment.
My engine is partially down in the keel covered by a small removable sette/ engine cover in the center of the main salon, so I cannot fire the extinguisher the way you describe without being down below in the main salon.

Any ideas or suggestions welcomed

Last edited by ArtJ; 04-19-2012 at 08:31 AM.
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  #43   IP: 24.224.206.117
Old 04-19-2012, 08:31 AM
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Sorry Art,

Maybe I worded it wrong. You don't have to leave the cockpit to activate it. I have to open the cockpit locker and activate it. I don't have to go into the boat. Although hard to see there is a wooded bulkhead separating the under cockpit area /and engine area from the lazarette. The extinguisher is in the lazarette but it's nozzle goes into the engine compartment.

The nozzle is secured with a tie strap but the tie strap is on loose. This allows direction onto the engine area but also allows you to extract the extinguisher in a hurry if you need it for something else.
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"Odyssey"
1976 C&C 30 MKI

The pessimist complains about the wind.
The optimist expects it to change.
The realist adjusts the sails.
...Sir William Arthur Ward.
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Old 04-19-2012, 08:33 AM
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Hi Mo

Please see the edit to my just posted response.

Best Regards

Art
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Old 04-19-2012, 08:36 AM
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You get some pics or a diagram of what you want. My good buddy owns a fire safety business...he does it all from skyscrapers to yachts....I will get in touch with him and let you guys talk. I bet he could tell you what to rig in a few minutes.
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"Odyssey"
1976 C&C 30 MKI

The pessimist complains about the wind.
The optimist expects it to change.
The realist adjusts the sails.
...Sir William Arthur Ward.
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Old 04-19-2012, 08:37 AM
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Here is a link to the layout of the Tartan 34c Engine compartment


http://www.sparkmanstephens.info/doc...CcIaGK6bvY.pdf
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Old 04-19-2012, 08:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maurice View Post
You get some pics or a diagram of what you want. My good buddy owns a fire safety business...he does it all from skyscrapers to yachts....I will get in touch with him and let you guys talk. I bet he could tell you what to rig in a few minutes.
Thanks Mo!!!!

What a great help and asset you are to this Forum.

Appreciated Greatly

Art
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Old 04-19-2012, 05:53 PM
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Smile

Art,
Greg got back to me. Here's what he wrote:

Maurice. Most people use big Co2 fire extinguishers. They take the hoses off them and run pipe from the cylinder to the engine room , thhen they put the cone on the end of the pipe in the engine room. They mount the cylinders above the deck or in the wheel hose. Co2 works better. Less mess. Cools faster. Smothers the oxygen better. You can squeeze the handle to activate it.

Art, Greg and I were volunteer firefighters on the same squad back in the day. He now own's and operates Atlantic Fire Systems (I think that's the name) and he's in Toronto. I know I don't need to set that up....and CO2 is coming back big time and halon is going out....heard that today from a chief eng on an ocean going ship.
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"Odyssey"
1976 C&C 30 MKI

The pessimist complains about the wind.
The optimist expects it to change.
The realist adjusts the sails.
...Sir William Arthur Ward.
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Old 04-20-2012, 08:59 AM
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Thanks for the message Mo and Thanks to your friend.
If I understand correctly, you are suggesting mounting the co2 extinquisher
similarly to your installation, the difference being that there is a long pipe
that goes to the engine room.

A few questions:

Where can these Co2 extinguishers be purchased. What mfr, model recommended?
Can some sort of hose be used instead of pipe?

What sort of hose /pipe to use?

Thanks and Best Regards to you and your friend

ARt
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Old 04-20-2012, 09:09 PM
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Smile

If you are set on going that way have a look in your yellow pages for fire safety / sprinkler maintenance....these guys do it. Simplex Grennel is multi-national I think. Also, check with Coast Guard in your area. They may know someone because they also have to inspect these systems on larger boats. Also check the regs, but Greg says CO2 is making a big come-back due to it's simplicity and effectiveness....common sense might be making it to the fore-front again.

My advice: Honestly, I don't think of my engine being the source of my fire if I ever have one. Thinking more likely a pot fire on the propane stove that flares and catches dish-cloths and things that might be close.

Prevention is the key: Here are some of the main things you can do and never have to use a fire extinguisher.
Period checks of systems that have fuel.
Fuel shut off valves for propane.
Fuel shut off valves for gas (engine)
Sensors / Sniffers (I don't have these)
Proper stowage of combustible material.
Wiring done so that no shorts etc and anytime there are fuses blowing etc you need to find the cause...not go bigger..

....and of course then have a few good extinguishers around for Coast Guard to come check.
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"Odyssey"
1976 C&C 30 MKI

The pessimist complains about the wind.
The optimist expects it to change.
The realist adjusts the sails.
...Sir William Arthur Ward.
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