Return to the home page...

Go Back   Moyer Marine Atomic 4 Community - Home of the Afourians > Discussion Topics > General Maintenance

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1   IP: 99.233.122.71
Old 06-09-2013, 09:15 AM
Whippet's Avatar
Whippet Whippet is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Toronto
Posts: 272
Thanks: 34
Thanked 18 Times in 16 Posts
Stuffing box maintenance

One of the joys of launch each year is observing what got worse since the prior year.

Dripping out of stuffing box, when in gear, is up to about 1 drip per second, which i take it is reaching unacceptable range.

I have C&C 27 which doesn't have great, but acceptable access.

Questions are:
1) should repacking be attempted on water? what are odds i sink it all?
2) any prior posts that describe the steps
3) what are risks of leaving it until winter?

thanks
Reply With Quote
  #2   IP: 24.224.152.244
Old 06-09-2013, 09:27 AM
Mo's Avatar
Mo Mo is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Halifax NS,
Posts: 4,470
Thanks: 292
Thanked 411 Times in 272 Posts
Smile

Is it dripping when the boat is just sitting there. 1 drop per second is recommended by some (if not most) of people that know what they are doing with stuffing boxes.

I believe Neil and Hanley are up on stuffing boxes.
__________________
Mo

"Odyssey"
1976 C&C 30 MKI

The pessimist complains about the wind.
The optimist expects it to change.
The realist adjusts the sails.
...Sir William Arthur Ward.
Reply With Quote
  #3   IP: 24.152.131.153
Old 06-09-2013, 10:33 AM
ndutton's Avatar
ndutton ndutton is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Torrance, CA
Posts: 9,619
Thanks: 198
Thanked 2,208 Times in 1,425 Posts
Oh yeah, we're all over stuffing boxes. We stuff 'em, we box 'em.

The packing can be changed in the water, no problem. The water incursion is minor. The two most important aspects of the project are stuffing box access and preparation. Have the right size packing on hand, it saves time to have all three pieces pre-cut to the proper length, have all the necessary tools at your fingertips and maybe a few extras to boot. You'll need a pick and needle nose pliers to extract the old packing, some sort of tamping tool to seat the new packing in place and a Sharpie pen to mark the stuffing box. I even had a rag available to knot around the shaft where it exits to stem the tide but it was wholly unnecessary.

When you're done you'll think, "What was the big deal? That was easy."

Use three separate pieces of packing rather than one spiral wound around the shaft three times. Place the joints 120° apart (the reason for the Sharpie). Bevel cuts at the joints are preferred but I've used butt joints for over 40 years without adverse consequences.
__________________
Neil
1977 Catalina 30
San Pedro, California
prior boats 1987 Westsail 32, 1970 Catalina 22
Had my hands in a few others
Reply With Quote
  #4   IP: 107.0.6.243
Old 06-09-2013, 11:08 AM
hanleyclifford's Avatar
hanleyclifford hanleyclifford is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 6,978
Thanks: 172
Thanked 280 Times in 226 Posts
Talking

I'm going thru this exercise myself right now, new shaft, cutless, packing flax and all. Last time I ran two courses of 1/4" and one course of 3/16". Worked well. This time I have wrapped 4 courses of 3/16" but I may not go with it. Seems to require a lot of twist to tighten the shaft. I do as Neil does with spacing the flax, much the same as the way we do piston rings. I also use butt cuts and they seem to work fine. Not sure how the addition of the cooling system is going to affect this.
Reply With Quote
  #5   IP: 24.152.131.153
Old 06-09-2013, 11:16 AM
ndutton's Avatar
ndutton ndutton is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Torrance, CA
Posts: 9,619
Thanks: 198
Thanked 2,208 Times in 1,425 Posts
Shouldn't affect it at all Hanley. The water injection is low pressure and for the benefit of the deadwood mounted bearing, not the stuffing box. The only difference you'll notice is your peace of mind.
__________________
Neil
1977 Catalina 30
San Pedro, California
prior boats 1987 Westsail 32, 1970 Catalina 22
Had my hands in a few others
Reply With Quote
  #6   IP: 107.0.6.243
Old 06-09-2013, 11:20 AM
hanleyclifford's Avatar
hanleyclifford hanleyclifford is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 6,978
Thanks: 172
Thanked 280 Times in 226 Posts
Question

Quote:
Originally Posted by ndutton View Post
Shouldn't affect it at all Hanley. The water injection is low pressure and for the benefit of the deadwood mounted bearing, not the stuffing box. The only difference you'll notice is your peace of mind.
Neil, what is your view of 3/16" vs 1/4" flax on a 1" shaft?
Reply With Quote
  #7   IP: 24.152.131.153
Old 06-09-2013, 11:47 AM
ndutton's Avatar
ndutton ndutton is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Torrance, CA
Posts: 9,619
Thanks: 198
Thanked 2,208 Times in 1,425 Posts
It's the shaft O.D. in conjunction with the stuffing box I.D that determines the packing size. The shaft in my boat is 1" -and this is pertinent to the original question - I incorrectly remembered it took 1/4" packing so that's what I had on hand when I set to the task of replacing mine. So much for preparation, huh?

Problem was, the stuffing box was designed for 3/16" packing. Oh-oh, now I had the stuffing box apart, the old packing removed and the new packing would not fit or more accurately, only 2 rings would fit and it was way too tight on the shaft. So, no packing, stuffing box apart, water coming in and the trip of shame (to West Marine) looming.

I lightly screwed the stuffing box back together with a single ring of old packing, the least damaged one from extraction and made the trek to West. Other than that it went pretty well.

Do you have any idea how hard it was to compose this post without adolescent innuendo? There were several rewrites before hitting the submit button.

edit:
Even though I called it the trip of shame, West Marine saved my bacon that day. Credit where credit is due.
__________________
Neil
1977 Catalina 30
San Pedro, California
prior boats 1987 Westsail 32, 1970 Catalina 22
Had my hands in a few others

Last edited by ndutton; 06-10-2013 at 04:24 PM. Reason: clarity
Reply With Quote
  #8   IP: 72.82.108.166
Old 06-09-2013, 12:04 PM
Ball Racing's Avatar
Ball Racing Ball Racing is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: VA
Posts: 506
Thanks: 2
Thanked 13 Times in 10 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Whippet View Post
One of the joys of launch each year is observing what got worse since the prior year.

Dripping out of stuffing box, when in gear, is up to about 1 drip per second, which i take it is reaching unacceptable range.

I have C&C 27 which doesn't have great, but acceptable access.

Questions are:
1) should repacking be attempted on water? what are odds i sink it all?
2) any prior posts that describe the steps
3) what are risks of leaving it until winter?

thanks
If it is replaced, you know what you have is new, and correct.

But also since the stuffing box is adjustable, given the packing you have now
you should be able to just give it a 1/8th turn or so on the nut, and see where your at, as far as drip.
__________________
Tyring to keep the Bay's Wooden Boat's history from dying off completely.
Daniel
Reply With Quote
  #9   IP: 107.0.6.243
Old 06-09-2013, 12:08 PM
hanleyclifford's Avatar
hanleyclifford hanleyclifford is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 6,978
Thanks: 172
Thanked 280 Times in 226 Posts
Talking

Neil - I feel your pain (and humiliation) at being forced to go to Worst Marine. We have one here and it gives me the creeps to go in but I do it at least once a year to make sure I remember. Better deal; order several sizes from www.hamiltonmarine.com, and keep plenty in stock of different sizes. My dilemma is whether to squeeze 4 courses of 3/16" beaucoup to get the seal or go to 3 courses of 1/4" and get a quicker, tighter grip. I only like to allow a drop every 4 seconds at rest, but I don't want to screw up this new$$$ Aqua 25 shaft.
Reply With Quote
  #10   IP: 96.229.18.9
Old 06-09-2013, 12:16 PM
Dave Neptune Dave Neptune is offline
Afourian MVP, Professor Emeritus
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Grove, Oklahoma
Posts: 5,035
Thanks: 711
Thanked 1,289 Times in 839 Posts
Lightbulb Not bad!

Whippet, as they said the water incursion is not bad and if you have room it is relatively easy project. I've done mine a couple times in the water and my access is fair. I even changed the entire box and shaft in the water and only got about a gallon and a half of water and the bilge pump didn't even stay on it cycled a few times though as my bilge is small.

Having the packing ready is good but not critical if you have a bilge pump. When I did it the first time I got the packing nut loose and ready to come off. Once there I got a rag ready and wrapped it around the "gland and the shaft" and tightened with some wire ties to slow the water. This allowed the time to really clean the "nut" and "fit" the packing nicely.

Also I would recommend going to the I think it was Gortex or something like that, it is a synthetic and last far longer and seals much better!!!! Worth the extra for sure here!!!

Dave Neptune
Reply With Quote
  #11   IP: 24.152.131.153
Old 06-09-2013, 12:19 PM
ndutton's Avatar
ndutton ndutton is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Torrance, CA
Posts: 9,619
Thanks: 198
Thanked 2,208 Times in 1,425 Posts
I used the PTFE flax and have no drips at rest. A potential problem (he said from experience) is at low RPM our engine produces very little horsepower so a gland that starts off tight only gets tighter as the assembly warms in use to the point where the engine's meager HP cannot overcome the drag and a stall accompanied with a brief squeal occurs. The first indication is a minor, almost imperceptible dip in RPM followed immediately by the squeal and then silence. Been there, done that.

That was the long way around the tree.

In short, you want the least amount of shaft friction that will seal. Simple as that. Why invest any HP into the stuffing box?
__________________
Neil
1977 Catalina 30
San Pedro, California
prior boats 1987 Westsail 32, 1970 Catalina 22
Had my hands in a few others
Reply With Quote
  #12   IP: 96.229.18.9
Old 06-09-2013, 12:24 PM
Dave Neptune Dave Neptune is offline
Afourian MVP, Professor Emeritus
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Grove, Oklahoma
Posts: 5,035
Thanks: 711
Thanked 1,289 Times in 839 Posts
Lightbulb FWIW Pt II

Whippet, the synthetic packing can be set much tighter and requires far less water flow (the drip) to cool and lubricate. I have mine set for 1 drop ever 15 seconds or so under load and once cooled and sitting it drips at about every 20~25 seconds for a week or so then slows a bit until the next use. The synthetic will require a few touches to get it right but well worth the effort in my book. The synthetic can run hotter and does not loose its lubrication (The wax in the flax) when ran warm for a bit.

If you are running flax it must stay cool to the touch and drip at a faster rate.

This is also part of a boat that all owner operators SHOULD be familiar with and ready to patch at all times, IMHO.

Dave Neptune
Reply With Quote
  #13   IP: 184.0.104.8
Old 06-09-2013, 01:31 PM
roadnsky's Avatar
roadnsky roadnsky is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Lake Mead, NV
Posts: 3,104
Thanks: 24
Thanked 467 Times in 309 Posts
Here's a decent instruction with pictures.
I used this on my first re-packing.
His idea of using a cut PVC pipe works very well for the "tamping" procedure.

http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/stuffing_box


EDIT: Note there are 3 pages of instructions
__________________
-Jerry

'Lone Ranger'

1978 RANGER 30

Last edited by roadnsky; 06-09-2013 at 01:34 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #14   IP: 173.53.23.94
Old 06-09-2013, 02:57 PM
ILikeRust's Avatar
ILikeRust ILikeRust is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Henrico, VA
Posts: 2,202
Thanks: 2
Thanked 23 Times in 21 Posts
When I did mine, I also bought a little tiny tub of grease that was marked as being for stuffing boxes, to help seal and run cooler. I slathered the prop shaft and packing with it. Seemed to make it easier to get everything in there neatly. Also - I have no drips, but it doesn't run hot. I'm thinking the grease is what is making the difference.

Either that or I did something wrong and am gradually destroying my prop shaft without realizing it.
__________________
- Bill T.
- Richmond, VA

Relentless pursuer of lost causes
Reply With Quote
  #15   IP: 24.224.152.244
Old 06-09-2013, 05:20 PM
Mo's Avatar
Mo Mo is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Halifax NS,
Posts: 4,470
Thanks: 292
Thanked 411 Times in 272 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by ILikeRust View Post
When I did mine, I also bought a little tiny tub of grease that was marked as being for stuffing boxes, to help seal and run cooler. I slathered the prop shaft and packing with it. Seemed to make it easier to get everything in there neatly. Also - I have no drips, but it doesn't run hot. I'm thinking the grease is what is making the difference.

Either that or I did something wrong and am gradually destroying my prop shaft without realizing it.
Likely not...grease WAS the packing at one time.
__________________
Mo

"Odyssey"
1976 C&C 30 MKI

The pessimist complains about the wind.
The optimist expects it to change.
The realist adjusts the sails.
...Sir William Arthur Ward.
Reply With Quote
  #16   IP: 64.229.66.61
Old 06-09-2013, 08:50 PM
Bingy Bingy is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Harrow Ontario
Posts: 129
Thanks: 1
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Would it be possible for the packing to have a small drip at first and then after a long run be so hot that engine would stall when at idle and then put into reverse . Boat stalls with a clunking sound.

Restarted, ran in forward and then reduced RPM and put in reverse with same results.

Other times with only short runs and reversing all is well.

Only occurs after long periods of running at 6 knots.
Reply With Quote
  #17   IP: 24.152.131.153
Old 06-09-2013, 08:59 PM
ndutton's Avatar
ndutton ndutton is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Torrance, CA
Posts: 9,619
Thanks: 198
Thanked 2,208 Times in 1,425 Posts
Entirely possible Bingy. How hot does the stuffing box get? Can you turn the shaft by hand when this happens?

One way to find out for sure is loosen the stuffing box so it's dripping profusely and retighten the lock nut there. See if the symptom repeats under the same conditions. If not, you've found it. Your automatic bilge pump should be able to handle the water shipped aboard easily.

Be sure to tighten up the stuffing box when closing up the boat until you can replace the packing.
__________________
Neil
1977 Catalina 30
San Pedro, California
prior boats 1987 Westsail 32, 1970 Catalina 22
Had my hands in a few others
Reply With Quote
  #18   IP: 64.229.66.61
Old 06-09-2013, 09:12 PM
Bingy Bingy is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Harrow Ontario
Posts: 129
Thanks: 1
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Both times this happened I was entering crowded marina and things were a bit hectic.
I checked trainy and reduction gear today and they were only warm to touch.

Never thought to check Stuffing box as it had a slow drip when previous checked but of course this was only after short running time.

Tomorrow I will put in gear at dock and with increased revs for longer period monitor the changes if any.

Thanks for the help, report to follow.
Reply With Quote
  #19   IP: 24.152.131.153
Old 06-09-2013, 09:14 PM
ndutton's Avatar
ndutton ndutton is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Torrance, CA
Posts: 9,619
Thanks: 198
Thanked 2,208 Times in 1,425 Posts
Yeah, it never happens at a good time does it?
__________________
Neil
1977 Catalina 30
San Pedro, California
prior boats 1987 Westsail 32, 1970 Catalina 22
Had my hands in a few others
Reply With Quote
  #20   IP: 99.233.122.71
Old 06-09-2013, 10:27 PM
Whippet's Avatar
Whippet Whippet is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Toronto
Posts: 272
Thanks: 34
Thanked 18 Times in 16 Posts
what a forum

Thanks to all. i'm much less intimidated to dig in, and appreciate that this should be required skill for every owner.

Access is not too bad. Sure would have been much easier when i had exhaust apart this winter since stuffing box tucked behind pipes.

I still hope to get in a few hours of cruising this summer on my floating novice mechanic workshop that happens to have sails attached. This winter saw re-bedded genoa tracks, new water pump to solve water in oil, rebuilt exhaust, and never got around to replacing the copper fuel lines, installing fuel filters, replacing points, etc etc ---- but havent had so much fun since tinkering with my 73 plymouth valiant w slant 6. reminds me of the A4. Solid and purrs when all is right.
Reply With Quote
  #21   IP: 66.108.51.167
Old 06-10-2013, 04:14 PM
CalebD's Avatar
CalebD CalebD is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: NYC
Posts: 899
Thanks: 18
Thanked 22 Times in 20 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by roadnsky View Post
Here's a decent instruction with pictures.
I used this on my first re-packing.
His idea of using a cut PVC pipe works very well for the "tamping" procedure.

http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/stuffing_box


EDIT: Note there are 3 pages of instructions
Yes, MaineSail's tutorial on stuffing boxes is quite informative.

I too fell into the bifocaled memory trap of using 1/4" packing on my 1" shaft when 3/16" is called for. When I inserted the 1/4" packing I used the PVC pipe method mentioned to cram the packing in there, and I really do mean cram in the physical sense.
I found that the stuffing box was running hot and it occurred to me that there was a lot of friction when there shouldn't be much. I realized my mistake and went to Worst Marine for the 3/16" packing and replaced it with the boat in the water - no big deal. Runs much cooler now.
I caution that using the PVC pipe dealy to cram the packing in is perhaps not the best method, but it would have worked fine if I had the right sized packing to begin with.
__________________
Tartan 27 #328 owner born 1958
A4 and boat are from 1967
Reply With Quote
  #22   IP: 69.250.44.209
Old 06-10-2013, 06:40 PM
Whippet's Avatar
Whippet Whippet is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Toronto
Posts: 272
Thanks: 34
Thanked 18 Times in 16 Posts
packing size

Thanks. not sure how expensive the material is but i may have both the 1/4 and 3/16 on hand just in case. I'm still a bit shy about doing on the water, but you guys giving me confidence. may have a bike tube and some clamps on hand in case lake ontario decides it would like to come inside.
Reply With Quote
  #23   IP: 184.0.104.8
Old 06-10-2013, 07:21 PM
roadnsky's Avatar
roadnsky roadnsky is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Lake Mead, NV
Posts: 3,104
Thanks: 24
Thanked 467 Times in 309 Posts
Hamilton Marine sells it by the inch (18˘ per inch for 3/16")
http://store.hamiltonmarine.com/brow...591,1068.html?

Get both 3/16 and 1/4 before you start.
(Ask Neil about this)

Don't sweat doing it in the boat. It's really not that much water. Really.

Here's a nice article about doing the procedure by Don Casey...
Attached Images
File Type: pdf Servicing Your Stuffing Box by Don Casey.pdf (85.6 KB, 598 views)
__________________
-Jerry

'Lone Ranger'

1978 RANGER 30
Reply With Quote
  #24   IP: 199.168.148.137
Old 06-10-2013, 07:38 PM
JOHN COOKSON JOHN COOKSON is offline
Afourian MVP, Professor Emeritus
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 3,500
Thanks: 54
Thanked 855 Times in 629 Posts
FWIW - I've Never Tried This

Whippet
If you are really antsy about repacking the first time in the water you can do this:
Dive under the boat and plug the hole where the shaft comes out with plumber's putty.
Just an idea. I'll leave it up to you if you think two trips under the boat are worth it.

TRUE GRIT
Reply With Quote
  #25   IP: 67.183.122.69
Old 06-11-2013, 12:01 AM
Mark Millbauer's Avatar
Mark Millbauer Mark Millbauer is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: WA state
Posts: 193
Thanks: 9
Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts
Whippet,

I removed, cleaned, and re-packed my stuffing box and replaced the shaft log hose with the boat in the water. No problem. Used a length of bicycle tube and a nylon wire tire to seal the shaft and log for 30 minutes while I cleaned and installed everything. Never got more than about a gallon or gallon and a half of water in the bilge. However it was on a C30 with great access.
__________________
Mark
C30 "Kismet"
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Identify Stuffing Box snook91901 Drive Train / Propellers 16 04-18-2012 09:15 AM
Should my stuffing box be smoking? chiron Links of Particular Interest 5 03-28-2011 12:30 PM
Stuffing box packing doublec9 General Maintenance 15 04-21-2009 07:01 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 05:30 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.


Universal® is a registered trademark of Westerbeke Corporation

Copyright © 2004-2024 Moyer Marine Inc.

All Rights Reserved