No Power and no RPMs

[keelcooler]

Firing order check 1 2 4 3. I screwed up when I first purchased my boat. It ran but no power. Did your surveyor check the compression? If not get a gauge and test. You want to know the base line anyway. Good Luck Bob and keep the info coming.

[RobH2]

I'll pull the exhaust anyway to check.

My engine is direct drive...I think. This is my first Atomic so I'm still getting up to speed but the shaft comes straight out of the transmission. I'll attach a photo and you can verify that for me.

The boat was surveyed before I bought it and I don't have access to that report. However, I'll pick up a gauge and check it myself.

Finally, is there a way to start the engine at the engine so I don't have to keep climbing (with the stairs pulled out) up to the starter switch?

Rob

[keelcooler]

You have plenty of room at your shaft, out of gear you should be able to hand spin to confirm no binding.

[RobH2]

Yes, I checked that today. The shaft spun very easily by hand. Slowly I'm eliminating components. I think it's valves. I'll be going down tomorrow to check that.

[thatch]

hotwire technique

Rob,
To actually start your engine "at" your engine you will need 2 jumper wires, preferably with alligator clips on each end. If you just want to turn the engine over for compression testing you only need one jumper wire. To engage just the starter connect one end of the jumper to the terminal marked "S" on the starter solenoid and then touch the other end to the battery terminal on the the same solenoid. This will engage the starter as long as the connection is maintained. To actually start the engine you will have to first connect a second jumper wire from the + terminal on the ignition coil and then connect the other end to the large battery terminal on the starter solenoid. Then momentarily connect the "S" terminal jumper as I described before to start the engine. Bear in mind that when you hotwire the coil you are also backfeeding any guages or other accessories that come on when you turn on the ignition switch normally.
I hope that I've described the process clearly enough, if you have any questions i'll try clear them up.
Tom

[RobH2]

Ok Tom. I think I have it. Thanks...

[Mark Millbauer]

You can purchase a remote starter switch for about $10 or $12 at any auto parts store. I keep one in my "engine spares" box. It works great for compression testing, setting points, etc. I used it for several days when my wiring to and from the ignition switch was messed up as well.

Mark
C27, Solution

[sastanley]

a picture just to make sure

Hi Rob,
When I first started tinkering with A-4s, I noticed something odd to me..the cylinders & distributor & wires are not oriented the same way I am used to seeing. With the different configurations of A-4s this confusion can be exacerbated, especially when discussion ensues on an Internet forum, or when new owners jump on a boat and may not know how it is supposed to be set up

I made this diagram last year when some confusion came up as to firing order and distributor orientation in another thread - additionally, things like V-drives (which completely turn the engine around) or having the engine under the steps as opposed to the middle of the boat, can bring up different interpretations as to front/back/top/3 o'clock position/9 o'clock, etc..

This diagram (borrowing one of the Moyer engine pics from their website) notes the plug wires, cylinder #s, wire orientation on the distributor & rotor position at TDC. Incidentally, I understand the early models might be different, but I have never seen one.

As someone else noted, it is odd that cyls 1 & 2 are the current culprit..normally 3 & 4 have problems, and it is not a rare occurrence to accidentally swap the #3 & #4 wires..hence the exact reason I made this picture.

[tenders]

Your symptoms sound to me like a blown head gasket between cylinders #1 and #2, or stuck valves in both cylinders. The cylinder adjacency strongly suggests head gasket to me.

Older styles of paper head gaskets (post-asbestos, pre-graphite) are very susceptible to failure, and with an engine that's new to you I'd want to make sure that your gasket is one of the modern, dark grey graphite ones that will hold through thick and thin rather than one of the paper gaskets, which are either green or manila brown in color and are a ticking time bomb.

Your work so far has been good, you've ruled out a lot of stuff and haven't made the problem worse, so the changes you've made will all be for the better once you get this figured out. Once you get the compression tool and confirm no compression in those cylinders, I see little risk to pulling the head, checking out the valve situation, and replacing the gasket with a modern Moyer gasket. There's a lot on this site describing the procedure, but assuming the nuts come off the studs relatively easily, it's an afternoon's job even if you've never done it before.

[RobH2]

Tenders,

I'm afraid that you may be correct. I've diligently followed everyone's suggestions here and they have been great.

Here's what I did today:

1. I pulled the exhaust pipe off of the manifold for a look. The bolts are new and the pipe (which was wrapped) turned out to also be new. It was absolutely clean and shiny. So I've now eliminated the exhaust.

2. I pulled the valve cover and set all the valve clearances. I was a bit encouraged when I found that cyl 1 and cyl 2 had no clearance. Once set I figured I'd found the issue...that the valves weren't able to close all the way.

3. I rotated the crankshaft and watched all the valves moving very nicely up and down. All the springs were intact and looked fine.

So, I put my new compression gauge on cyl 1 and cranked the engine. No compression at all. Disappointment led to despair when I put the gauge on cyl 2...no compression. I then hooked the coil back up actually started the engine testing all the cylinders. My results are below:

Test 1 (turning engine over with starter only - no starting):
Compression -- 1=0, 2=0, 3=100, 4=110.

Test 2 (start and run engine):
Compression -- 1=60, 2=95, 3=95, 4=100.

Turning the engine over with the starter gave me no compression in cyl 1 or cyl 2 but firing the engine up did. I did realize that the initial compression on cyl 1 and cyl 2 were false for sustained compression. Upon fire-up they peaked at 60 and 95 respectively but if I purged the gauge while running they dropped and settled in at 30 and 45 at 800RPM. At 2800 RPM they showed 60 and 70.

I think I'm getting some overheating too. I have a laser thermometer and it showed the temp in the center of the head between cyl 2 and cyl 3 at 197 degrees.

So what do you guys think? Is my head gasket blown between cyl 1 and cyl 2? I'll go read about that task now but look forward to your diagnoses after you read my tests.

Thanks,

Rob

[Marian Claire]

RobH2: I do not want to beat a dead horse here but did you run the engine with the hot section removed? Dan S/V Marian Claire

[RobH2]

No, but I will. Unless I'm mistaken, an exhaust constriction would not create zero compression in cyl 1 and 2. Someone replaced/serviced the exhaust recently as the bolts are shiny and new and the hot section of pipe is new. My problem is I can't ask questions about the boat as the previous 80-year old owner died. I'm on my own here as to what's been done.

We delivered the boat for 51 hours without the wet muffler attached and she was really pumping the water and exhaust out. I think it's clear but I'll take your advice and run it with the pipe off. However, I'll wait till I replace the head gasket. My head gasket appears to be blown and it also looks like an old paper one. I'd like to have a good graphite one in there anyway as the old style are apparently ticking time bombs.

Rob

[thatch]

a word of caution

RobH2,
As a word of preemptive caution, since it looks like you may be heading toward cylinder head removal, take it slow, use plenty of penetrating oil and read everything you can on this site dealing with that job. It normally takes patience, time, tapping (with a small hammer) and more patience to get most A4 heads off. You're doing fine so far.
Tom

[Marian Claire]

RobH2: I understand and only want to make the process clear. As posted do go slow with the head removal, tap tap pry pry. PB blaster is got for loosening the nuts. I used wood shims to slowly break loose the head on the MC. Dan S/V Marian Claire

[RobH2]

Thanks for your cautioning me. I have and know PB Blaster. Is that sufficient for the 'penetrating oil' aspect of the job? I also like the wood shim idea. It sounds less damaging than screwdrivers and you can make them as thick as you want/need to in order to lift the head. I'd guess you need a screwdriver to get it started though. I ordered the head gaskets tonight.

I've been reading all evening. There are a lot of posts about heads. My main worry is getting the studs out. My engine looks bad. I'll make her pretty one day but when I first saw the engine I was afraid. I bought the boat 'for the boat - not the engine' and figured I'd replace the engine. But, if I can get this baby running and throw some love and paint on it I'd like to try. Below is a photo of what I'm dealing with.