ABYC Standards

[ndutton]

Honest question Keel,

Given your view of the ABYC in general - which I'm not arguing - is it your position that the standards are without merit? Don't most surveyors refer to the standards as a benchmark?

And speaking of surveyors, the guy who surveyed my boat when I bought it was a real pip but that's for another thread someday. Come to think of it, how 'bout today? I'll get right on it.

[High Hopes]

Sometimes

As someone with electrical engineering training and considerable experience, it is my humble opinion that the ABYC standards for wire gauge is over specified. Specifically, the 3% voltage drop recommendation is not a sound trade off between cost and benefit. If one wires a boat to a 5% voltage drop, it turns out that for almost all circuits, 14 gauge wire can be used.

Also, very fine stranded wire is not needed. Automobile wire is less finely stranded and takes more abuse that wiring on a boat.

I partly rewired my 1975 Sabre 28 recently and found no loose connectors or fatiguing wires - including the lightning protection wires which are connected to the keel bolts sitting in the bilge water. These are un-tinned wires and they are still in service today. 2011 - 1975 = 35 years.

[HOTFLASH]

Voted "always", but have 2nd thoughts

Well, virtually always when possible in modifications I make. My boat, 1975 Tartan 27, as built would not even comply even with the current USCG standards if it were not for the grandfather clauses Or, so as not to betray myself, "grandmother" clauses. No blower, no electric bilge pump, etc, etc. I installed those and other features.

I use ABYC standards as a guide, if I cannot follow them to the letter..

[keelcooler]

I hope I didn’t infer the standards had no merit. Nice bait presentation Neil, I’ll only nibble.

The benchmark standards of real significance are published by the USCG, National Fire Protection Agency and Marine UL equipment testing certification. Builders strive to adhere 100% with these players, ABYC not so. Clearly big brother ABYC hopes that one day the voluntary building standards will be building regulations and your builder will have to go to them for the permit and certified workers.

Sorry Sea Ray and Catalina your well respected apprenticeship programs are just not up to our standards...I mean regulations. We can accommodate your workers at ABYC University so you can practice boat building in the US legally. No, there is no other way of securing a degree and yes, we just opened up a student loan program with competitive rates.

Universal saw the writing on the wall in the 60’s that this robust little updraft motor was doomed. They just made it by USCG regs in the 70’s by installing an electric fuel pump, external scavenger tube direct to the manifold and newly modified flame arrestor. Redesigning the intake and carb for down draft function with space limitations was not viable. Thus began the unsafe atomic bomb propaganda that persists to this day. Let’s just say at the time there were many trade show rumors that a push for the federal government to adopt revised gas engine regs that signaled the demise of the up draft gas marine engine in US pleasure boats was afoot. Who was pushing? Only the insiders know for sure. ABYC needs to pump out a few new standards every year to justify those dues.

Yes Neil reputable and charlatan surveyors use the above standards and then some. You do have to be careful with the ABYC bunch. If your annual dues are late you run the risk of getting a call reminding you of copy right infringement and the no quarter given policy.

[ndutton]

Wasn't baiting Keel, really wanted to know how you felt.

The ABYC organization might not be the best but until something better comes along what else do we have? In many cases the USCG has adopted the ABYC Standards verbatim so in a way, endorses them.

[sastanley]

keelcooler...wow!

I have an acquaintance that frequents the same watering hole I do and he was with Westerbeke when they went and shut down..er...I mean, took over Universal's shop in Wisconsin. He said it wasn't real pretty.

So, who's going to design a multi-point fuel injection system for the A-4! - We could do ram induction cold air intakes from a dorade and everything!!!

(ok...at least a 3 point system since we have the goofy asymmetrical manifold arrangement.)

[edwardc]

I'd be happy with a single-injector throttle-body solution!

[hanleyclifford]

I'd be happy with a single-injector throttle-body solution!

Now we're talking! Who's our artist/concept man?

[sastanley]

ed,
My old '91 Civic basically came with that..although it was technically Dual Point..it had some sort of aux. injector below the throttle body.

Fortunately, the Si model in 1988-1991 had multi-point injection, so a lot of us "ricer kids" with non-Si models converted to MPFI either by replacing the ol' 92HP DX motor with a different motor & ECU that had it (and re-wire the car, which is what I did) or you could just get a MPFI manifold, and make some wiring modifications to the car..might have had to change out the ECU also...I can't remember right now...it is a little fuzzy. - by the time I was all done, I had ~135 HP in a 2265lbs. sleeper car.

[edwardc]

Facinating that you also drive a Civic. I've owned an '85 (last of the carburetors), a '93, and currently a 2000.

[joe_db]

The non tinned wire on my boat all dissolved into black dust
I have many thousands of open ocean miles on her, so perhaps my use is not typical.

As someone with electrical engineering training and considerable experience, it is my humble opinion that the ABYC standards for wire gauge is over specified. Specifically, the 3% voltage drop recommendation is not a sound trade off between cost and benefit. If one wires a boat to a 5% voltage drop, it turns out that for almost all circuits, 14 gauge wire can be used.

Also, very fine stranded wire is not needed. Automobile wire is less finely stranded and takes more abuse that wiring on a boat.

I partly rewired my 1975 Sabre 28 recently and found no loose connectors or fatiguing wires - including the lightning protection wires which are connected to the keel bolts sitting in the bilge water. These are un-tinned wires and they are still in service today. 2011 - 1975 = 35 years.

[Will Jacocks]

Facinating that you also drive a Civic. I've owned an '85 (last of the carburetors), a '93, and currently a 2000.

We have owned 2 Hondas, my wife got the first year Insight (2000) and we had it for quite a few miles. We were able to get an average of 50+ MPG and there were times we could go a lot higher, especially on road trips where we tailed a couple of 18 wheelers, (no, not that close!!! ) and were getting 70+MPG. We sold it after we had a few accidents, (kids, not us... ) and got the 2006 Civic Hybrid and we love it, 4+ years later and 180K miles and going strong. Averaging 40 MPG which is pretty terrific, now if only I can get my '94 F350 Powerstroke diesel to do something like that.

[Marian Claire]

I know I have a few nonconforming electrical connections on the MC and plan to correct them this coming weekend. Has anyone used a "liquid tape" product to cover/seal a crimp connection? Dan S/V Marian Claire
Another Honda Civic here.

[sastanley]

Facinating that you also drive a Civic. I've owned an '85 (last of the carburetors), a '93, and currently a 2000.

Ed...it gets weirder...my Civics = '78, '85, '91 and an '07 Si sedan (finally one I like without mods.) I still have the '91 too...it just needs a transmission!

There is a '98 Accord hiding in there also that the ex-wife kept, and now I have to help my daughter work on it every time she's home from college now that she's driving it & the ex-wife didn't maintain it.

I got 40 MPG out of my '91 Civic in stock configuration on a road trip when it was new to me with 65K on it. It is now over 240k. (only 10K on the the motor I rebuilt, but even that one gets 31 MPG!!!), better than my '07 Si which is averaging 23 MPG around town, and 30 on a road trip...I love my Si, but the wife's Audi A4 is a much nicer car on long trips, so we usually drive hers!!!

[sorry for the hijack!]

[msauntry]

I work on boats for a living, I'm not ABYC. Never looked at em... Used to work on a Coast Guard certified passenger vessel that met all CG requirements and again, never looked at ABYC. I've commissioned new boats from the factory and shook my head at the stupid stuff I saw come out of there. Also, many european vessels are not ABYC. I know Swans don't use tinned wire, and they are wonderfully engineered boats.

Insurance companies don't care about ABYC either. I've never seen any reference in denied claims about "not ABYC compliant".

Coast Guard compliant is another matter entirely...