old boat..new owner..needs tlc..might as well start a thread about it and its A4

[sastanley]

Newbie alert!

Hi all...might as well introduce myself and get moving along with things.

My father has decided he's moving to Florida, is done with his boat, and has given it to me. (Uh oh, free boat!) - I am now the proud owner of a '77 Catalina 30 (hull #511) with an anemic A4. My father, as much as I love him, always did the least amount of maintenance, and spent the least amount of money possible to keep the motor running well enough to get in and out of the slip. I hope to do some cruising with the boat, once we get things in order..he's really only daysailed her a few times a year the last 10 years or so.

This poor motor is going to need some help from all you people. I do know that my father has already enlisted some of Don's services (probably not via the fourm), as the engine has an MMI manifold on it, and in the pile o' stuff that I got with the boat, the MMI A4 manual, with the greasy fingerprints on the pages in the overhaul section with the head, manifold & valves.

I've only heard the motor run for a few minutes, as I haven't sailed on the boat much in the last 5-10 years. I am having frequent e-mail discussions with him to find out what he actually has done to the motor, and what he hasn't. The thing sounds as though it is running on 2.5 cylinders at any engine speed above idle, and he's complained of sticky valves before. Apparently last winter's winterizing with Seafoam (and I also found some MMO in the chart table) allowed the engine to start right up, but it still runs pretty rough. He has mentioned compression numbers to be inconsistent, he thinks from valves not seating properly. I am waiting for more info from him.

I expect that as I get time to work on the boat, I'll be adding to this thread. My wife and I spent the evening pulling 30 years worth of stuff off the boat. My plan is to do some engine work with the boat in the water and improve the performance before I haul it for winter to let the bottom dry out a bit.

I guess what I am looking for may be a checklist or priority order of things to do and places to start. I am a sorta a motor guy, but not really old enough to know much about flat head motors..my weekend mechanic stuff has mostly been OHC 4 cyl Honda motors. The valves hanging out upside down next to the pistons are something new to me.

One of the other things I've noticed is the entire bilge (I mean everywhere) is DIRTY. I suspect most of this is 30 years worth of oil from the crankcase breather. I think one of the first upgrades is a PCV system of some sort.

So, here we go! Thanks in advance for your advice and help

-Shawn
'77 Catalina 30
Solomons, MD

[msauntry]

Welcome Shawn,
You're off to a good start. Dive right in. I've found just following different threads here can be quite an education. The manual should be a big help, too. Start with MMO in the cylinders, maybe a couple of times, to clear up the rings and valves. The stuff is a pretty good detergent and might free up some sticky stuff and improve compression. Also recommend the breather to carb kit, either Don's or Indigo's, and the electric ignition. I've seen a few items that are specific to the Cat 30s that you may want to search for and print out. Exhaust backpressure and wiring harness problems come to mind.

Post things on here and this group is pretty good about finding the solution to problems. Its an easy engine to work on, once you clean off all the neglect.

[sastanley]

Thanks..I am hoping so. The very first thing I think I want to do is the PCV system. Does Moyer Marine sell the kit without the fan$y flame arrestor? It looks like except for the carb spacer, most of the parts are easy to obtain, although I am all for spending money on a kit someone else has already done all the R&D and hard work on.

The reason I've decided this is the first fix, is the whole bilge and every locker connected to the bilge is greasy/oily/dirty. My wife said her truck smelled like gas & oil last night on the ride home with the company of the 17 or so cushions which have probably never been off the boat. The discussions here about the lack of PCV and the smell of everything once it is off the boat made the light bulb go off on the likely cause....30 years of fumes from the crankcase!

Checking the exhaust situation is also on my short list. I have experienced this problem on some diesel powered sailboats..a buddy yanked and rebuilt the head on his M-15 because he thought the valves were no good, but it turned out to be a corroded/clogged exhaust elbow!

One other obvious issue I've noticed is the aft block drain (long tube, stbd side) has broken off at some point and was repaired with marine tex or a similar epoxy. My father said its been that way for 20 years, and as long as you are careful with it, it seems to hold. His idea of winterizing is draining the block and letting the leftover sea water and air corrode the thing from the inside out, so I do plan a proper winterizing on the motor this fall, but while it is still warm, I'd like to work on it some and try to get out for a weekend cruise or two for 'testing'.

Off to pick up some more MMO at Wally World (Wal-mart) today as Sunday is boat cleaning day. Should I let it soak for a while or fire it up with the oil in cylinders?

>edit<
Well, I just had a long conversation with my Dad and received some more motor history:
The motor has been drowned twice, once by standing water in the boat that got high enough to leak into the engine thru the dipstick hole. The second time by extended cranking and backing up from the exhaust. Guess that accounts for the issues with cylinders 3 & 4.

-Shawn

[Kurt]

Welcome to the world of the Atomic 4! I have certainly learned a lot and done a lot since becoming an Atomic 4 owner 1.5 years ago. In terms of some order of events to get a baseline picture of the condition of your engine, I would spend the $30 or so on a compression tester at your local auto parts store. Getting good baseline compression readings on your cylinders will go a long way towards figuring out what, if anything, needs to be done to the motor to improve questionable performance. Anything over 80 should be good and you don't want to see much of a differential between cylinders (mine vary by no more than 10psi). Also, the brass tube that you say broke is just an extension for the aft block drain to make flushing and winterizing a bit easier. I did away with mine, cleaned up the threads with a 1/8" pipe tap and installed a brand new 1/8" pipe cap - no extension. If you want a new extension, however, Moyer does sell them in the catalogue under "Brass Fittings".

Cheers and good luck.

[rigspelt]

I guess I'm about 6 months ahead of you in a similar project. My approach might be (Warnings: 1. I'm an amateur, and 2. Varies with the owner's philosophy):

Read Don's Critical Suggestions note: http://www.moyermarine.com/forums/pr...ead.php?t=2643

1. Basic external inspection of the engine and start listing issues. Digital photograph everything. Check wiring and connections, look for leaks of oil, water and exhaust gasses, signs of rust and colour changes. Condition of choke, throttle and shifter cables. Engine mounts. Prop shaft and stuffing box.
2. Check condition of plugs, points, rotor and inside of distributor -- record the findings for later reference. Their condition tells much about the status of the engine. Colour, dry/wet, deposit quality, gaps, etc.
3. Compression test.
4. Get MMI's manual and notes collection.
5. Systematically read everything on this website, start compiling notes. The place is a gold mine of information.
6. Consider removing and inspecting parts systematically, after reading ahead carefully in the manal and online. Check each device carefully for subtle signs of trouble. I found important issues with several of the old, apparently OK original parts. Go system by system (cooling, oil, fuel, air, electrical, combustion chambers, and drive train). Don's manuals and the archives have tips on everything - search the archives for each system as you check it. Spread the task over time, starting with the critical parts.
7. Check the essential peripherals: raw water cooling hose and filter, fuel tank, fuel lines/hoses/filters, exhaust and exhaust hoses, and their through hulls.

All this should provide a good sense of the baseline condition of the engine. Try rating it 1-10, where 1 is discard and 10 is virtually new engine. Then you will know whether it worth renovating, and where to start spending money if it is. Resist spending money on "nice to have" add-ons before the essentials are assessed.

Once the basics are done and after inspecting and cleaning out the cooling system, consider eventually switching to freshwater cooling.

[msauntry]

My drain fitting was stripped, and I couldn't find a tap and cap for the next size up. If you can, great. I found a bushing that fit the standard 1/8 drain cap, so I just Dremmeled out the original hole in the block to good metal, ground off the outer threads on the bushing, smeared some JB Weld (MarineTex) and tapped that in with a hammer. The 1/8 drain plug now goes in the bushing, and they're both the same metal so no corrosion to worry about. Well, less corrossion anyway...

I had the distributor/alt/starter off anyway, so this was easy to access with the dremmel.

You'd be surprised what these engines can bounce back from. It'll take some head scratching and knucklebusting sometimes, but you'll get it.

[sastanley]

Thanks for all the tips..fortunately work is not real busy right now so I can sit and dream of an Atomic 4 that looks like the ones Don Moyer advertises on his site and make my wishlist

My thought on the PCV system was that if I am going to clean the bilge and lockers, I should keep them clean, but I realize that 30 years worth of sludge I am cleaning up compared to the 2 or 3 hours I may put on the motor the rest of this season is peanuts.

I don't mind troubleshooting. My '91 Honda Civic (which I am happy to report just got 36.5 MPG the last tank on its new motor) was in my garage with a blown motor for 2.5 years before I swapped in the motor I had rebuilt (and lots of other "Well it isn't running so I might as well fix x, y & z" projects)...at least the Atomic 4 still runs.

I have a screw-in type compression tester..I'll do that this weekend to get some baseline numbers..& I've already dedicated a notebook to "Cygnus" projects. My father reports, 'when I did a compression test, I got something like 30 or 40(psi) in #3 & 4, and something like 80(psi) in #1 & 2 with a cold engine. Maybe I didn't do too good a job reaming the valve seats, and Don recommended I not try it with the engine in the boat, but I did it anyway'.

I've been lurking here at the moyer site off & on for months as I suspected this day of Atomic 4 ownership (along with an attached boat) would eventually come..now it is time!

thanks again for the support and suggestions! I like bouncing ideas off people that have been-there-done-that, so I am sure I'll keep this thread active asking questions.
-Shawn

[colin sealey]

I'm new too

I'm considering buying a boat powered by a 1974 A-4 with about 2000 hrs. A pre-purchase inspection showed compression for all 4 cylinders to be about 112 psi. Information somewhere in the forum gives 85 - 115 as an acceptable range, so I just want to double-check that I'm reading this correctly and that the test results indicate a good engine with a long expected lifespan.

If I buy the boat, I expect to make good use of this forum!

Colin

[Don Moyer]

Colin,

Your compression values are strong evidence that the basic mechanical condition of the engine is good. In case you haven't seen it before, I'll attach a guide that may be helpful in checking other things when buying an Atomic 4 powered boat.

Don

[Jesse Delanoy]

sastanley,

If you run into real problems with the engine, see Billy at Zahnisers down your way. We have a sister '77 Catalina 30, and he spent a good bit of time with us a couple of years back, ending in his installing a rebuilt A4 that we bought from Moyer. He's knowledgeable and helpful.

[David Masury]

[/QUOTE]
Once the basics are done and after inspecting and cleaning out the cooling system, consider eventually switching to freshwater cooling.[/QUOTE]

I agree with this 100%. I was fortunate enough to have an engine with fresh water cooling already... I am going through another engine and plan to make this one fresh water cooled as well.

If you have the room in your boat, this option seems to make sense. You then have the best temp control and fewer problems.

David

[sastanley]

update time

Hey fellow Atomic enthusiasts!

I have an update on my new-to-me Catalina 30.

I ran the engine last week (to charge the batteries a bit since the boat has no 110v charging source) and things chugged along fine for 20-30 minutes. This week I came down to the boat to install the Indigo PCV system. During this process, I did a few tests to get some baselines before I actually do anything to the boat:

Compression readings on a cold engine (not run in 10 days):I tested each cylinder twice and had my wife with me so I didn't have to short the starter (and so she could hand me tools) , and also so she can get an idea of what we are up against...gas motors in boats are a new concept to her, so I want to show her and have us both learn as we go along.
Result - 90-92 psi in all 4 cylinders!
This is better than I expected to find. However, if you recall, when the motor was in gear (still tied in the slip) it seemed to miss/chug under load. Another observation. I suspect the plug wires are probably original - I will be visiting Don's store here soon I guess. The #1 wire does not seem to fit on the plug real well, and is stiff/brittle.
Have no idea of the hours on the plugs, so I'll replace them too. They are sooty, but do not appear fouled, but they are cheap.

Exhaust elbow area:
Exhaust area clean...removed the 'down pipe' before the muffler and there was zero blockage in the hard fitting where the water is added to the exhaust. However, the lift?? outlet?? side of the muffler is almost corroded thru..there are rusted wires everywhere..anyone have an idea how much hose I need? This boat has the anti-siphon valve in the sail locker, up pretty high (port side, near the top) I do not know the condition of the rest of the hose..only the first couple of feet I can see in the engine compartment.

PCV system - 98% installed. The teflon tape used to seal the new fittings in the pump to carb fuel supply fell out of the toolbox enroute to the car, so it hung out in the garage while I was at the boat. Need to go back tomorrow after work and finish that up. It was getting dark anyway, and I want some sunshine to properly check everything in good light to make sure there are no leaks. Once this is installed, I plan to run the motor a bit and get her warmed up for another compression check.

This boat does not appear to have a fuel filter installed, as per one of Don's PDFs floating around here. Although I have not inspected every inch of the fuel hose, there is no filter mounted in the locker with the fuel tank. The line appears to go straight down the middle of the bilge from the tank to the mech fuel pump.

Added some distilled water, checked the electrolyte (1100) and put the dead battery on the charger in the garage, we'll see if she holds anything.

More soon. Advice always welcome

[sastanley]

sastanley,

If you run into real problems with the engine, see Billy at Zahnisers down your way. We have a sister '77 Catalina 30, and he spent a good bit of time with us a couple of years back, ending in his installing a rebuilt A4 that we bought from Moyer. He's knowledgeable and helpful.

Jesse, thanks for the tip. I actually worked in the sail loft for Clarke at Zahniser's about 15 years ago, so I know Billy. Nice to know a local guy has the skills if I need him..they are about a 12 minute boat ride from the slip!

[sastanley]

Hi more updates!

Went back to the boat today after work. What beautiful weather here on the Chesapeake (today anyway!)

I finished the PCV system without any problems, and added new spark plugs today, since they were easy to find enroute. After starting up the motor, things related to that are fine! She runs a little rough, especially under load, but seems to create some thrust tied to the dock. At least she isn't running any worse than before. I may need to tweak the idle valve, as the instructions during the installation of the PCV had me move it around.

After about 20 minutes, I shut her down and pulled the plugs after letting it cool down some. Took another compression reading.

95 PSI on all cylinders!

I am convinced the valves & rings are fine, but what I may have is a tuning problem. Just in case, I squirted some MMO in the spark plug holes & blipped over the motor a little bit with the starter to move it around, since I won't be back to the boat for two weeks. Figured it was a good time to do that.

Although I did not start the motor back up, when reinstalling the plugs/wires, I noticed the wire to the coil not connected to its connector inside the boot! I do not know if this by itself would cause it to run poorly, but I've had that wire off & on a lot in the last few days during the compression tests.

New wires are definitely on order, and we'll keep plugging away at things.

[sastanley]

Tach lead?

Ok, so today I plan to head to the boat and I am going to install the tach (if I can find it in my box of parts)

Where should I run the tach lead?