ABYC Standards

[ndutton]

Insurance companies don't care about ABYC either. I've never seen any reference in denied claims about "not ABYC compliant".

. . . . . until some surveyor, in an effort to sound official, peppers his survey with "non-ABYC compliant" tags and then some insurance actuary who has never set foot on a boat reads it and either denies or reduces coverage. I offered the choice in the poll as sort of a wisecrack but it was born of experience. You see, that happened to me.

I had such a surveyor. As a result my original insurance company and I had a year long dialogue over repairs, when they would be done and who was doing them before they cancelled me. The straw that finally broke the camel's back was not an ABYC issue although I had my share of those. It had to do with a recommended rigging survey that turned into a condition of coverage. I argued why spend $600 on such a survey when I'm replacing all the rigging anyway? They didn't agree. No survey, no insurance.

That's an example of how dogmatic and heavy handed the insurance company was regarding the survey recommendations.

edit:
six years and three insurance companies later I'm now insured for 4X the value of the original policy at 1/4 the cost. My current carrier did not require a survey but rather sent out their own "inspector" with a 2 page form to fill out and a digital camera in hand. Apparently they've had their own surveyor problems in the past.

[msauntry]

Guess I was a little too sweeping in my generalizations. Sorry about your survey problems.

Might be a nice thread to put up sometime if you feel like reliving the past. I don't think I've ever seen a post on insuring our old boats and it would be educational to see how different people in different regions are handling this issue.

[gary randall]

Judging by the response here to the original question: what "significance (do) the Standards play in repairs or modifications," I would say that most of you are at least sympathetic to their intent.
But – as was mentioned in several posts – the logic of some of them, as well has the motives of the insurance companies certainly can be questioned.
This means the more knowledgeable among you can pretty much decide when and where to comply.
Whereas I am pretty much an amateur, I cannot, and – believe me – I am more than a little grateful for this site and the expertise that can be found here.
So, what I would like to see is a "Cliff's Notes" version of the standards (or at least a Top 10 list) that are most worthwhile.
(If you guys could go to work on this, you could probably publish by the end of the year, and I could be in nearly full compliance by the start of the 2012 season!)
But, in all seriousness, what topics would lead a Top 10 list?
For example, in another post, it seemed that there was some question about the use of galvanized pipes on hot exhaust sections and there seemed to be a question about whether a prohibition was necessary, so that standard might not make the top of anyone's list.
Vented loops, on the other hand, seem to be a no-brainer.
So, could the Forum come up with a rough outline of "Forum Standards?"
Or, put another way, what standards would you rather not be leaving the dock without?

[ILikeRust]

Seems to me that the issues of topmost significant importance would be fuel storage and handling and electrical systems. Those are the things that could either blow up or burn down your boat and put a serious crimp on your boating day.

Of course, they're all pretty important, but, for example, how the toilet is plumbed might not have quite the same potential for imminent catastrophe as a leaking gasoline tank or an overloaded wiring harness.

I definitely would like to be able to take a look at the ABYC standards for guidance, if nothing else - too see what the purported "gold standard" in industry is. The problem is that they aren't freely or even easily available anywhere, and I don't want to spend a few hundred bucks buying them all.

[msauntry]

Sorry Gary, but myself and a few others aren't running anti-siphon valves because my drystack takes care of that instead, and its made from True Value's finest galvanized pipe! I also have a Vetus waterlift and am not "ABYC compliant" in many areas of my boat, and I sometimes drink red wine with fish instead of white.

Each boat has its own challenges and what works on one type won't work on another. Hence the variable responses on this forum.

[sastanley]

battery terminal fuses

So, since I've moved my batteries & I am re-wiring, one of the things I think that ABYC wants is some sort of fusing at the battery level. This seems to make sense if there was some sort of system wide failure and might keep the batteries from melting the boat..I think.


Are there other "major" types of fusing setups I should consider in the boat? I have a 100 AMP breaker which separates the DC distribution panel from the main battery switch, but there is no other 'fusing' in the boat for large components (battery, starter, alternator, etc..)

As a start, I was considering one of these on top of my two battery (+) posts.

link here, pic below:

http://bluesea.com/category/5/21/productline/overview/378

#1 - What say ye?? (of course I seek the advice of those with similar electrical/engine set ups)
#2 - What amperage is sufficient to accommodate the loads imposed by the A-4 when starting (I think someone here calculated 160 amps), & therefore, what size should the fuse be? This particular fitting can handle up to a 300 amp fuse.
#3 - Is all of this necessary? I guess I worry more about dropping a tool and shorting out the battery (which I also assume would blow the fuse & maybe keep me from blowing up other systems down the line?)

[High Hopes]

Hi Shawn, long time no talk.

If your batteries run to a battery switch before they run anywhere else, you do not need a battery fuse. After the battery switch, a distribution panel provides for individual circuit fuses (or breakers).

Fuses are selected at 1.4 times the nominal current. For example, if you have a 30 amp load on the alternator, a 1.4 x 30 = 42 (40) amp fuse would be used.

There is an exception. Starter motors are not normally fused. The current draw is high and proper, high-ampacity fuses are expensive. Instantaneous current are very high. Fuses incorporated into battery terminal connectors are usually crap.

Steve

[ndutton]

Fuses are selected at 1.4 times the nominal current. For example, if you have a 30 amp load on the alternator, a 1.4 x 30 = 42 (40) amp fuse would be used.

I don't know if ABYC requires it but in the trade the wire gauge must be suitable for the higher amperage overcurrent protection.

Example:
Circuit draws 16 amps, #12 wire is suitable (20A rating). However, if fused at 1.4 times 16 amps (= 22.4 amps) the wire now needs to be #10 (30A rating) because of the bigger fuse (or breaker). We run into this all the time on motor circuits.

[sastanley]

Steve & Neil, nice to chat with both of you...my internet connection is shaky tonight so you may never see this.

The 100 Amp breaker is integrated into the battery switch...the batteries go to their respective 1 - 2 terminals and then there is a 100 amp breaker between them and the panel.

I guess I am still confused about additional fusing that may be needed..my 1977 boat had minimal..but I'd like to do what I can to make it better/safer in 2011.

Going cruising this weekend...hope I don't burn the boat to the waterline with my current setup.

[ndutton]

Shawn,

I stumbled across this from Blue Sea Systems. Should answer many of your questions. Note particularly that the cranking circuit does not require protection and that all protective devices are to be in the positive conductors.

http://bluesea.com/viewresource/98

[roadnsky]

Steve-
Welcome back! Where've you been?

[High Hopes]

Hi Roadnsky,

I have been getting the house ready for sale. I have been out of work since December. It was expected and we are downsizing. I ache all over. I am too old for this crap... painting, cleaning, fixing, new floors, new appliances, and I know more about staging than I ever wanted to know, but the house is finally ready. Should go on the market this week.

The boat is was due to come out of the water, but it still in the slip. I think the marina is being kind to me. Things are tough at marinas these days.

Hope all is well with you.

Now on to sastanley.

[High Hopes]

Hi sastanley (it's Shawn right?),

The batteries go TO the battery switch (to terminals 1 and 2) with big fat red wires. From the battery switch (the common terminal), one big fat red wire goes to the starter motor (no fuse). FROM the battery switch (Common terminal) another big red wire goes to the breaker panel. I use a fuse in this run, a big one (60 amps). From the breaker panel, all other items can be powered, including engine circuits. On your fuse panel, think of circuits as a fan-out arrangement.

Except the alternator. Typically, the alternator is connected to the starter wire via a separate fuse (40 amps or so).

Also, engine circuits are typically fused in the engine compartment and not at the panel. But the breakers in the panel would work fine. People just don't want to run the extra wire, so they work off the starter or alternator terminal.

Other than the engine, every other device on the boat is powered from the panel through a breaker.

Although every circuit on your boat should be fused, your don't need to have a fuse for every device. For example, you can connect all your nav lights together and bring them back to one breaker. You can connect all your cabin lights together on one breaker, your nav instruments to a breaker, etc.

Make sense now?

- Steve

[sastanley]

Hi Steve,
Thanks..sounds like I should fuse the output from my alternator to the battery charging isolator..I did do a dedicated run to that (4 gauge) instead of back to the starter.
I have a schematic over in the new "Drawings" section of the forum.

[roadnsky]

Steve-
Sorry to hear about the tough times. A lot of that going on.
Welcome back and smoother waters ahead...