Palmer P60

[AFisch]

Hey All...so it was suggested I start a new thread here...

To back track...I have an old Columbia with a Palmer...been having shut down problems, have done all tests, spark, fuel filters, fuel pump, new fuel lines, compression, etc. Was still having an issue with the engine shutting down after a few minutes of running.

I have now taken off the Carb and it is an Old Zenith with no part number, but just orders a rebuild kit from Moyer that looks like it'll work. This should be arriving in the next week, so I will be sure to post an update after I clean it and get it back to factory good.

I hope you all find me on this thread!

Adam

[Dave Neptune]

Any pics of t=your Zenith. Probably the same carb or at least very close. Is it a Series 67?

Your symptoms and troubles should be in direct comparison to the A-4. Similar size and style just a different manufacturer.

Dave Neptune

[Dave Neptune]

Got ya

Any pics of your Zenith. Probably the same carb or at least very close. Is it a Series 67?

Your symptoms and troubles should be in direct comparison to the A-4. Similar size and style just a different manufacturer.

Dave Neptune

[ndutton]

Based on your description I'm sure a carburetor rebuild is in order but I'm doubtful it will solve your problem. It really sounds like contaminated fuel to me. Do you have a mechanical or electric fuel pump?

I suggest you search the forum to read up on testing with an auxiliary fuel tank.

[joe_db]

Second that. I am about 90% sure your problem will persist. Did you ever check the fuel pressure?

[AFisch]

Based on your description I'm sure a carburetor rebuild is in order but I'm doubtful it will solve your problem. It really sounds like contaminated fuel to me. Do you have a mechanical or electric fuel pump?

I suggest you search the forum to read up on testing with an auxiliary fuel tank.

I replaced the fuel pump (electric pump), and also tested from an auxiliary 5 gallon jerry can of fresh fuel...this was before I took the carb off...the problem still happened when doing that.

And looking at the fuel coming out of the tank when checking the flow all the way down to the line going into the carb, it all looks clean and had a steady flow to it.

Adam

[AFisch]

Any pics of t=your Zenith. Probably the same carb or at least very close. Is it a Series 67?

Your symptoms and troubles should be in direct comparison to the A-4. Similar size and style just a different manufacturer.

Dave Neptune

This is the only pic I have so far...I'll put it together and take a better pic.

[Don Moyer]

Late model carb on Palmer P60

AFisch, For whatever it's worth, and if you can't resurrect your old carburetor, we do sell a handful of new Atomic 4 Zenith carburetors to Palmer P60 owners each year, and they work fine. https://moyermarine.com/product/carb...fcar_13-2_166/ .

The only complication is that original carburetors used on Palmer engines (as well as those on early model Atomic 4s) had internal scavenge tubes. So, to be Coast Guard legal, you'll need the additional adaptive parts listed in the product description in our catalog to provide a scavenge tube. This requirement will likely exist for any currently available new carburetor that would work on your Palmer P-60. You can call Ken at (610) 421-4436 for more information. Don

[AFisch]

AFisch, For whatever it's worth, and if you can't resurrect your old carburetor, we do sell a handful of new Atomic 4 Zenith carburetors to Palmer P60 owners each year, and they work fine. https://moyermarine.com/product/carb...fcar_13-2_166/ .

The only complication is that original carburetors used on Palmer engines (as well as those on early model Atomic 4s) had internal scavenge tubes. So, to be Coast Guard legal, you'll need the additional adaptive parts listed in the product description in our catalog to provide a scavenge tube. This requirement will likely exist for any currently available new carburetor that would work on your Palmer P-60. You can call Ken at (610) 421-4436 for more information. Don

Thanks Don...I already bought the rebuild kit from your website for the early model carbs...should be arriving on the 18th and I will get to cleaning this one and putting it back together. If I have problems, I will certainly look to buying a new one.

[Dave Neptune]

Aisch, be very careful cleaning out the idle circuit. The idle jet in this series carb is very small and could easily be plugged by a "spec" of debris.

Also do install the scavenge tube as it can eliminate a big bang or burn. It is a safety devise and it is very simple.

When you do try to start with the rebuilt carb do try using an auxiliary fuel tank and a gravity feed of a few feet will run her up enough to see if all is well. Once confirmed "good" then try feeding with the boats tank. If anything goes amiss do remove and flush the carb immediately. Probably no need to redo but you will at least know if the fuel in the tank is good~~somewhat important.

Do use new lines and freshen the filters for the rebuilt carb if it passes the auxiliary fuel test.

This is a perfect time to add a fuel pressure gage which can save much time diagnosing in the future.

Dave Neptune

[joe_db]

Second that. I am about 90% sure your problem will persist. Did you ever check the fuel pressure?

I think I changed my mind, that carb looks nasty
I would think about a new one IMHO. I had one that caused endless issues no matter how many times it was cleaned or rebuilt and I finally got Moyer to mail me a new one mid-cruise.

[AFisch]

Aisch, be very careful cleaning out the idle circuit. The idle jet in this series carb is very small and could easily be plugged by a "spec" of debris.

Also do install the scavenge tube as it can eliminate a big bang or burn. It is a safety devise and it is very simple.

When you do try to start with the rebuilt carb do try using an auxiliary fuel tank and a gravity feed of a few feet will run her up enough to see if all is well. Once confirmed "good" then try feeding with the boats tank. If anything goes amiss do remove and flush the carb immediately. Probably no need to redo but you will at least know if the fuel in the tank is good~~somewhat important.

Do use new lines and freshen the filters for the rebuilt carb if it passes the auxiliary fuel test.

This is a perfect time to add a fuel pressure gage which can save much time diagnosing in the future.

Dave Neptune

Thanks Dave...I like the idea of testing the rebuilt carb with the auxillary tank first...I am also going to replace all spark plugs and will change all filters again as well. And I'll get that pressure gauge installed too.

Adam

[AFisch]

Hey Dave Neptune...in the other Palmer Thread you mentioned to me:

"Do not trade in your carb yet, will get to why later if you go further."

I feel like I am further now...and after your recent suggestion as well as Joe-DB and Don's recent comments, I am now thinking I just get a new Carb...Should I still go for the rebuild or maybe just replace?

I will call Moyer and see if I can return the rebuild kit (which is supposed to arrive to me on the 18th) and see if I can just get a new carb.

Adam

[Dave Neptune]

AFisch, you have a cast iron carb like the older A-4's used. They are an excellent carb and lend themselves to rebuilding quite well as long as the halves match and there are no rusted out sealing surfaces. The CI will rust and the rust can be cleaned out whereas the alloy bodies can create all kinds of "oxidation & pitting" which is no good and hard to clean or repair.

If you have the "original" carb it is a good thing because the metering for the P-60 will be in it. You can get the numbers and do a good match. RE the new A-4 carb the metering should be almost the same as the P-60 as they are about the same duty (HP) and displacement. No real worries with operation if a god carb is supplied like from MMI. And you will need to install the scavenge tube which is no biggie as it is just a standard 1/8" copper tube that it breaths through externally on the A-4 late model.

I have always recommended using a "top oil" in these old engines and MMO works fine if it is your preference. I prefer a newer synthetic grade of 2-stroke oil that is designed to burn with fuel, it is graded as "TC-W3". I used it in my ole beastie for 34 years with no issues. I mixed about 1 oz. per gallon which is 128 to 1 and creates no smoke. I recommend going to a richer mix if your engine tends to have sticky valves.

Dave Neptune

[tenders]

By "metering," Dave, I think you're referring to the jet sizes in the carburetor? Those are visible when you remove the brass jets and look very carefully at the tiny numbers engraved on the side. I have to use my iPhone to take photos of these numbers and zoom in on the photos.

By "top oil" Dave is referring to a bit of oil you add to the gasoline - as opposed to the crankcase or transmission - like we used to do with two-stroke engines before they started coming with automatic oil injection systems. Many people including me use Marvel Mystery Oil this way and it's been flawless in stopping a sporadic sticking valve situation in my engine.

If MMO is not your thing, or if you need something more viscous for whatever reason, I've been fussing around with two-stroke scooter engines over the past year and can confirm that modern oils like TC-W3 create FAR FAR less smoke than the old oils used to, just 10 years ago. There is an even less smoky Japanese oil standard called JASO, which you can buy on Amazon. Modern two-stroke scooter engines use it - and yes, there are modern two-stroke engines being sold today that conform to US emissions laws.

https://www.oilspecifications.org/jaso.php