ABYC Standards
 

On a recent thread I posed a question referencing the ABYC Standards and received a response that surprised me. Since most of us here work on our own boats, it got me to wondering what significance the Standards play in repairs or modifications.

Neil, I picked sometimes, because I don't know them all!

Interesting
 

Althoough I have seldom ever consulted them I have changed a few things to comply. Such as I still use the clear Racor I just replace it every few years as I have had one crack. I just like being able to see the water and or contamination.
I do try to make all my repairs and or modifications farbetter than what I am replacing, or at least neater as in wiring and stronger in mounting.
No secret to haw we voted huh Niel?

Dave Neptune:cool:

I voted sometimes because I'm too cheap to spring for tinned wire. On everything else I follow it to the letter. Don't want to give those insurance suits any excuse to deny if I need to file a claim. Besides, I figure the brain trust at ABYC knows a Helluva lot more than me.

I do care
 

I voted "don't know, don't care" because it was the most truthful. But that's because I never thought about it.
My boats wiring was so bad....How bad was it?

It had more than half a dozen unfused circuits that also bypassed the main battery switch! One of these, the bilge blower was just twisted wires tucked into the crevice by the blower. When I was moving some stuff in the lazarette, I bumped both the hot and ground together(yes they were that close), I smelled wiring smoke and had to rip the wires out with my hands. Can you just guess at how mad I was.

All circuits are fused and soldered or crimped now, and they actually have insulation over the connectors now. Wow! real insulation! It's still a bit of a mess, but it's much safer now, and that's how I vote.
I hope you guys are shaking your heads—I am really not exaggerating how bad this wiring was.

Oh, that blower wiring; I have the receipt from the yard in seattle that installed it. It was a "professional" job. Truly amazing.

Thanks for the stimulating poll. As you can see I have some issues here.

Ta,
R.

Like you, Neil, the thrifty side of me keeps some choices off the list. For example, I like to look at the Compass Marine photo/project site and admire the work and tools used in the process. While the mantra "the best tool for the job" is admirable, I just can't keep up and I'm sure the quality of my work follows suit.

The professional work Russ relates is at the other end of the spectrum. Images of tarring and feathering come to mind...

Maybe the 'Sometimes' choice should have been 'I try to but sometimes make exceptions.' That would fit me.

My opinion is if you don't do it right, you put your boat, your guests and yourself at risk. Electrical and engine systems are critical when it comes to risk avoidance. So who's to say what's right? The only standards we have are the ABYC and USCG and in many cases the coasties have adopted the ABYC standards word for word, exhaust systems (that which inspired this poll) for example.

Russ' experience may start the next poll: Why repair your boat yourself?
A) I'm too cheap to pay someone.
B) Even my grandmother can do a better job than some of these so-called pro's.
C) All of the above.

I put never, since I never knew anything about it. While I don't pay attention to those requirements, it doesn't mean I don't try to do a good safe job.

I voted sometimes. I like to do as Dave said, in making a repair try to figure out why the thing failed in the first place, and try for a permanent fix. In my tinker brain that usually means an upgrade. I never solder wire connections because I change them so often. Also, I'm still using the clear polishing filter because I like to see the fuel moving; however I do have two shutoff valves. As a result of watching this forum I'm learning a lot about the ABYC Standards and will try to move in the direction of compliance.

I used to run a shop, so I got used to always following ABYC. We did mainly electronics/electrical, but every now and then we did engine stuff.
Sometimes I think the standards are counter-productive. I really can't stand the "no valves for draining water from the filter" rule. Trying to get a plug unscrewed and not get gas everywhere has to be more dangerous than a valve :mad:
I heard a rumor a valve with a cap screwed on would be pretty safe unless you forget to put the cap back AND the valve leaks ;) I might try that.

My answer to your question yesterday was not mean to be snarky; merely factual.

My boat was built in 1968 and I bought it just last August. So I have owned it less than a year. I believe I am at least the third, if not fourth (maybe even fifth) owner. It seems that each owner before me did various things to the boat.

In the 1970s, it had a Loran - I know this because the PO gave me a big stack of paperwork and documentation that came with the boat, and the Loran documentation is in there. The Loran itself is long gone. But evidently some of the wiring remains.

At some point, maybe in 1970s or early 1980s, it had a refrigerator installed, supposedly. The paperwork is in the big pile of paper the PO gave me. I have yet to find the location of the compressor and stuff - I haven't gone digging very hard yet, but to be honest, I don't know if the machinery is still on the boat or not. There is a switch marked "refrigerator", but when you flip it, nothing happens.

The engine was replaced in 1983. I have discovered, since pulling the engine out of the boat in February, and spending lots of time at this forum getting an education, that the exhaust was all wrong. So I will be re-doing that.

The engine and battery wiring was pretty sketchy. I know the PO did all of that, because he told me he did. None of the battery terminals were covered.

Last year, when I had a problem with the engine not shutting off, despite the switch being off, I found and pulled out two abandoned circuits that were not connected to anything. They *were* connected to power, mind you - but they went off into various places in the boat and just ended - just wires lying there, ready to conduct current. I'm betting I still have a couple more of those.

I have found what appears to be an antenna wire, like a coax cable, that is not connected to anything. I'm guessing it's either an old CB radio or marine radio or maybe for the old Loran. I dunno. There are lots of wires running hither and yon along the deck/hull seam, and it seems to me to be far too many wires, considering how little the boat has in the way of electronics or anything. It's on my list to investigate all of these and remove any that are abandoned.

There are various switches and devices installed in the rear cabin bulkhead above the engine. Two very different ones for two different bilge pumps, each of which was installed at very different times. None of them are installed in boxes. If you stick your head behind the bulkhead, you can see the backs of every switch and meter, with all the spaghetti connections back there.

I am glad, however, that nobody ever simply twisted wires together with wire nuts - oh, except to hook up the VHF radio. That, in fact, is connected to power with two wire nuts. But those are the only wire nuts I have found on the boat.

I know my cockpit drains do not meet the ABYC standard, because the surveyor did the math and told me they needed to be bigger to drain faster. He told me it wasn't as much of an issue if I just kept my sailing to the Bay, but if I went out into open water, where there was more of a possibility of shipping water, I should upgrade them. I might do that anyhow, but it's not high on the priority list.

...and so on.

In the meantime, I have a perfectly sailable boat that I can take out and enjoy. She's got a sound hull and sails well, and I have no concern that she might sink or blow up on me or my family, so I will use her as-is, while I also work towards rectifying a lot of the things that I know are not right. Like all of that exposed wiring behind the bulkhead.

But I'm just one guy, and I can't do it all at once by myself.

As far as compliance with the ABYC standards, well first of all, I don't know what those standards require. So I will have to obtain a copy of them and educate myself. I believe, however, that you have to purchase them, yes? I spent a few minutes digging around the ABYC site and found it not very user-friendly, with an emphasis on being a dues-paying member.

I would wager that the vast majority of small pleasure craft do not come anywhere close to meeting the ABYC standards. If you're a modern boat manufacturer, sure, you're going to comply with the standards, as industry standards against which a tort lawyer would hold you accountable. But as "Joe Boatowner" buying a 40 year-old, used boat, or even a 15 year-old, used boat, being that the ABYC standards are purely voluntary and not government mandated (at least not in the U.S.), I'm sure you'll find compliance is quite low.

I know my reply was quite long, but another couple thoughts struck me:

There are ABYC standards and then there are ABYC standards. In other words, some standards are much more important and worthy of adherence than others.

For example, the standards for plumbing your gasoline delivery system would seem to me to be worthy of close attention.

The standard for hull identification numbers? Not so much. If you're a non-member, they want to charge you $50 to download that standard. I'm curious what it requires that the USCG regulations (available for free from your Uncle Sugar) don't.

Similarly, there is an ABYC standard for "owner's manuals." Again, it costs $50 to download it, unless you're an ABYC member (which costs around $300 per year). Why would I bother adhering to that standard, unless I were a boat manufacturer?

Now, the standard for "seacocks, through-hull connections and drain plugs" - that one I'd like to take a good look at. For now, though, I'm following MaineSail's tutorial over at Compass Marine for replacing my raw water intake.

Bill,

I didn't take the "Longevity' thread response as snarky at all. I thought you meant what you said but I admit it surprised me. I didn't think a history of non-compliance supported continuing the trend.

And I agree that certain sections of the standards bear more weight than others, like fuel and exhaust systems. Here is a free link to ABYC Standard P-1, Recommended Practices for Exhaust Systems. Click on the download link to get the pdf. At the top of table 1 found on page 6 you'll find the allowable materials for dry exhausts (hot section) on gasoline engines.

If you feel that the ABYC specs on exhaust systems is one of those important areas, it may help with your hot section rebuild.

Oh, well let's be clear that I fully agree with that. I did not mean to imply that I was taking the approach of thinking "well, nothing on the boat meets ABYC standards now, so I might as well keep jury-rigging crap together."

I was just observing that as it *currently* exists, I'm sure any ABYC compliance officer (if there is such a thing) auditing my boat would suffer fainting spells. As I'm sure he would auditing the majority of your typical private pleasure craft owner's boats.:o

Thanks! I definitely will give it a good gander. I need to take a look at the whole damn exhaust system. I've never crawled all the way back to inspect the whole length of it. But I do know it's got a plastic Vetus water lift muffler. I haven't taken a good look at that yet, but I'm hoping it's still in good enough condition to continue to use, rather than having to sink yet another couple hundred bucks on something new. If it is shot, I likely would buy the MMI stainless unit.

I have gained a huge education in the past year - I'm always looking to learn and understand anything I can about boats and their systems and how to do it all "right". I've spent a considerable amount of my time researching stuff on the web (here and on several other forums) and have bought a whole mess of books about boat construction and repair (as my wife will tell you - my side of the bed looks like half a library threw up on my nightstand). Still have lots to learn, but I like learning it!

ABYC exhaust guidelines that I bet you are NOT following:

Pipe Size - Threaded pipe and Fittings for the
engine exhaust(s) should be at least schedule 80 pipe or
equivalent.

1.7.2 An indicator shall be provided that is effective at
all helm positions to indicate loss of exhaust system source of cooling water supply. This indicator shall be independent of the coolant temperature indicator.

As for materials, brass IS allowed, even though from what I read is dissolves pretty fast in salt water, stainless is allowed, copper-nickel is allowed, and bronze is not mentioned.

I didn't know about the sch 80 requirement and will be sure to follow it when I replace my hot section in the future. McMaster-Carr has it.

As I read the table, brass is allowed for the wet section (first column) but not the dry (hot) section (second column).

Like other posters, I follow the ABYC standards when I feel they add something of value from a safety standpoint, or otherwise. I find that they make me aware of potential safety hazards that I would not otherwise be aware of. However, sometimes I don't think they're of sufficient concern to follow or they just may be impractical to try to fulfill in a 30+ year old boat, so I pick and choose.

I had a fit when the surveyor wanted my CNG tanks in a propane-style locker. I had to explain that CNG is LIGHTER than air and confining it that way would be counter-productive.

Bill, I feel your pain.:(
Aaaactualy, The wires that were twisted together on my blower were not even held with wire nuts!
They were just twisted together like when one might test a circuit for continuity. They were just hanging out in space back in under the deck and got pushed together and started to melt. It was like someone wanted this boat to burn!

Hanley, interesting—I solder because I am too cheap to keep buying terminals when I keep changing things.:D

r.

The hard part is trying to live up to the ABYC standard when retrofitting an older vessel such as mine;

...such standards were almost non-existant when my boat was built and subsequent owners either didn't care or didn't know about ABYC standards!

Case in point - I recently found out that the only thing keeping my vessel from Davy Jones locker was the rubber gasket in the Whale Gusher Model 10 that a previous owner had installed below the waterline with the outlet below the waterline...

1. without a shutoffvalve at the thruhull;

2. or a checkvalve in the line!

:mad:

Ya, true story, among many with this vessel - but she is coming along as time goes on!

;)

I voted 'Sometimes'
 

In order to comply with ABYC standards you first have to know what they are and I'm not paying $50 a pop for each standard for a one time fix.
MaineSail's Compass Marine website is a good resource as I'm fairly certain that he knows what the so called standards are.

If you research ABYC a bit you will find that it is largely funded by groups like the NMMA (Nat'l Marine Merchants Ass'n) and other marine industry players. This set up is a bit like assigning the fox to guard the hen house. That said, all boat makers needed to come up with a set of standards of best practices for many reasons. One reason was to have their products on the required list - like tinned wire.

Thanks Rick

I thought I was the only one outside, I thought if you used an acronym you should first state what it is.

Vince:confused:

Looks like a couple messages got deleted from the thread? :confused:

Anyhow, just for the record and for anyone else coming along later to read this thread, the ABYC is the American Boat and Yacht Council, which is an industry association that establishes industry consensus standards for the safe construction of boats.

ABYC is not a government agency and its standards do not have the force of law, at least in the U.S. (not yet, anyhow). To be legally enforceable, they would have to be adopted by the proper regulatory authority. But they are generally viewed in the industry as best practices. They are largely geared towards manufacturers and boat repair and maintenance technicians. There are standards for certifying people who repair and maintain boats and their systems. The standards specify certain knowledge and abilities the person must demonstrate in order to be certified.

ABYC was created in 1954.

I know someone who works for them.
They are actually pretty good reading, even if you can't follow all of them. You can run into issues with insurance surveys where they want a 30-40-50 year old boat to follow 2011 guidelines. I went round and round with one survey where they wanted the engine completely sealed off gas-tight from the rest of the boat :mad::confused::confused: Some things are just not possible as a retro-fit. I pointed out the FAA only makes you keep your airplane as certified when DESIGNED. Some companies still build airplanes today as a continuation of the 1930s era type certificate (Waco for one).
Things you do want to follow as best you can are fuel and propane regs. Those exist for very good reasons. The electrical stuff is mostly very good too. Tinned wire may be a conspiracy, but I had to replace every inch of non-tinned wire my boat was built with because it was dissolving into black dust. The grounding rules for shore power will save you or your diver's life!

Cryptic acronyms
 

Sorry guys, with all the shorthand flying around here like PO, FWC, RWC, UHS, OPSS and the like, I wrongly assumed ABYC was universally known.

As far as the quality of the standards, they're really all we have. The USCG pretty closely parallels them and in some cases has adopted complete sections. It's then that they become enforceable. It's interesting too the conflicts reported here all have a common antagonist - the marine surveyor. There's an entity in dire need of regulation and oversight.

Getting back to standards, imagine what boats would be like without them. How many previous owner nightmares have we dealt with? Without the standards that would be the norm.

Said another way, what will your boat's next owner have to say about you?