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-   -   Catalina Atomic 4 No Crank Problem Resolved (https://www.moyermarineforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1725)

Don Moyer 07-21-2007 08:10 AM

Catalina Atomic 4 No Crank Problem Resolved
 
Posted on behalf of River Rat (please read today's private message to you):

PROBLEM:
Catalina 30 Atomic 4 engine cranks at times but at other times there is not even an engagement click or any sound coming from the start circuit. Go below and short the terminals between the "S" terminal and bat hot lead at starter and immediate crank and likely start will occur-----What is wrong??

ATTEMPTS AT FIXING ISSUE:

1. Replace Ignition Switch, may work for a while.
2. Replace Starter Solenoid, may work for a while.
3. Replace Starter, may work for a while.

Bottom line is that you can try all of the above and they MAY work or seem to work for a while but then the problem will occur again, ---- Turn the key, no crank or turn the key over and over and maybe after 10 or more attempts the engine might crank. You can always go to the starter and short the "S" terminal and the battery lead and it will always crank over perfectly-------major question is ----what is wrong with this picture???


ANSWER AS I HAVE FOUND IT OVER AND OVER:

1. Original Atomic 4 engines had Prestolite Starters which carried a Piggy Back Relay to carry the heavy load of the starter solenoid. The Catalina harness was designed for this light load due to the relay being a part of the start, crank system, and therefore was in the 16 gauge wire range or at least very very small.

2. Later Atomic Four engines had Delco Starters which had no such thing as a Relay and expected the hot lead from the starter switch to carry the full 20 to 25 amp load that the starter solenoid needed for engagement. Catalina unfortunately did nothing when the starters were changed and therefore a very small gauge wire was expected to carry full solenoid load which it can not do for long. Result is that when the points in the Ignition Switch or Starter Solenoid contacts becomes even slightly burned the resistance is so high that the tiny wire can not carry the amp load and the stater does not engage. Bottom line, no crank.

THE FIX:
All you have to do is disconnect the wire leading from the Ignition Switch to the starter solenoid and introduce a a 30 amp relay. You get an old style relay which uses a hole in the case as ground and bolt it to the engine. You then run a number 10 wire from the starter hot lead, main battery lead to starter, to the relay and then from the relay you connect a 12 gauge wire from it to the the starter "S" terminal. Now all that is left to do is put the old small gauge wire from the Ignition Switch to the Activation Post on the relay and you are in business. Now the starter solenoid gets full amps it needs and the Ignition Switch is only carrying the light amp load needed by the relay.
I have done the above fix to at least four Catalina 30 boats with Atomic 4 engines and they have never had the issue of no crank again. Catalina will tell you that the wiring is fine and that you need a new Ignition Switch or Starter which is a crock. If you call Delco they will tell you that their solenoid needs at LEAST 20 and most times 30 amps to work properly. Even if you buy the new harness from Catalina it will come, or has in the past come with the same small lead used with the Prestolite Starters which will NOT work with the Delcos or at least not well or for long.

Hope this helps a few Catalina owners who have fought the above problem and probably spent a fortune trying to cure it. I learned much as they did, the hard way, but found an old Electrical Tech who had seen the same issue in Log Bronc's, little boats used to push logs in lumber mill ponds, which used Stevedore versions of the Atomic 4 and suffered the issues of Prestolite versus Delco starters. Hope this helps.

River Rat

Don Moyer 07-21-2007 08:15 AM

To the best of our knowledge, the Catalina 30 fleet never had early model engines (or Prestolite starters), and their wiring harnesses had much heavier gauge wire between their starter switch in the cockpit and the starter solenoid than 16 gauge wire. I can check to make sure, but I'm quite sure they (as we do in our kit which is modeled after the Catalina 30) use 12 gauge white wire in this application.

Don

RIVER RAT 07-21-2007 11:57 AM

Catalina Atomic Four No Crank Problem Resloved
 
While I would hope that Catalina resolved the issue in their latest harness they are selling for service the boats that I upgraded with the relays were in the 1978 thru 1981 vintage and were identical in respect to the lead from the switch to the starter solenoid and was way undersized per Delco's Tech department for the distance run. At the time I did the installation of the relays in the boats I contacted Catalina and they told me at the time that they would "Look Into The Situation And Get Back With Me"-----------that was around 1985-------do you think I should expect a response soon??

THE BREEZE 02-06-2008 04:06 PM

Old style 30 amp relay...?
 
Don: What do you mean by an "Old Style 30 amp Relay" with a ground through the middle. Where can I get one of those...? Any brand name or part number you may know of....? I'm having the trouble you talked about in this post. Starter working then not working. Thanks for any info.:confused:

jbsoukup 08-04-2012 11:40 AM

I've owned my 1977 catalina 30 for nine years now and it's only this season that I've begun to experience this starting problem. Key the engine and you hear the solenoid click but the engine wont crank. At first I thought it was the starter solenoid -replaced that- then I found loose connections at the instrument panel. Fixed those and the problem seemed to be resolved but it still didn't start as forcefully as I thought it should. then one day after running the engine for a long time(fishing) it just up and died. no power to the instrument panel at all. no clicking sounds when keying - nothing. Jumped the starter motor and it spun but solenoid wouldn't engage. I was at a loss for a solution. Then it occurred to me that in order for the ammeter to work, all the power must flow through it. So I tried bypassing the ammeter by removing the red wire (from the back of the ammeter) and piggybacking it to the orange one and BINGO! It starts like never before. it was the ammeter itself all along causing the high resistance.

sastanley 08-04-2012 12:38 PM

jbsoukup,

A lot of us (especially with the C-30) have removed the ammeter permanently. That long run for the charging circuit leads to a lot of voltage loss I'd rather have going into the batteries, and as you've noticed, I think unnecessarily complicates things. A voltmeter in the panel is just as useful and can be piggybacked off the purple from the ignition switch. If it says 13-ish volts, the alternator is working.

ndutton 08-04-2012 12:49 PM

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One more thing to consider - have you removed the two (or three) trailer plugs in the engine harness? They are a known failure point. There is one at the engine, one at the panel and if your control panel is located in the aft coaming or pedestal, a third plug can be found in the general vicinity of the galley drawers/ice box. This is a picture of mine, still functioning when it was removed.

sastanley 08-04-2012 05:56 PM

yay..pictures!
 
Oooo..Neil...That picture brings up the perfect opportunity to re-post my new wiring harness that eliminated that trailer plug(s).. :D

http://www.moyermarine.com/forums/at...1&d=1343098234

ndutton 08-04-2012 05:58 PM

Most excellent!!

Any way I can set you up, Shawn. My pleasure.

jbsoukup 08-08-2012 07:12 PM

I had installed a voltmeter near the main panel in the galley when I first got the boat - way more useful in my opinion. checked the the disconnect plug by the engine too. it looked good so I just gooped it with some dielectric grease and plugged it back together. couldn't find any other plugs- it seems everything just runs straight to the instrument panel. (I refreshed all the connections to my main fuse panel and added a small sub panel with maybe 6 fuses to handle things like autopilot, radio, 12v outlets, etc. Did that about 5 yrs ago so I didn't have to piggyback on any of the original circuits) don't know yet if I'll replace the ammeter or not, I don't really miss it. BTW my boat is 12v only, no shore power.

sastanley 08-09-2012 09:18 AM

jb..I do not have any 110V power aboard either...just fine with me. I carry a 30 amp cord and plug in a 6 outlet strip so my wife can blow dry her hair (& charge laptop & gadgets) when in a marina. :D

I do have a small (3.2watt!) solar charger with a regulator that I alternate between house & start each visit to the boat. It works great. If I ever find another small panel, then I wouldn't have to swap it over. :rolleyes:

Where is your engine panel? I have a tiller, so mine is in the front half of the cockpit, port side, in the 'sail' locker, next to the engine controls. My original 12v 6-switch panel was in the aft galley, near the ice box. I found a 2nd plug for the engine harness under the galley counter top in that area, by pulling out the double drawer assembly (aft of the stove). The plug was just before the wires ran off thru the bulkhead into the sail locker & up to the instrument panel.

I think that those with the instrument panel on stbd side of the cockpit due to wheel steering may even have a 3rd plug somewhere...

Catalina liked to continually 'improve' the boat, so even though we have the same hull, there are subtle differences as the hull #'s go up.

CdawgII 12-28-2012 05:49 PM

Is this a confirmed resolution?
 
Hello All:

I have a 1981 Cat 30 A4 with this exact issue. I noticed that the thread on this went back a few years, but was recently updated...has this solution been verified? If it has, if anyone could provide more detail on how to do all of this [to a mechanically challenged mind], it would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks, David

Dave Neptune 12-29-2012 11:04 AM

Welcome & go4it!
 
Cdawg, first welcome to the Afourian Forum.
David,it is basically just wiring and there ar wiring kits that do make it much easier to do. I am in the process myself at this time. I am using a bundled "romex type" wire that has 2 #10, 2 #12 and 4 #14 fo rthe gages. It is a common product available in most marine and hot-rod shops, you buy it by the foot and go to work. It really isn't too difficult if you go one step at a time and take the time to route the leads neatly. Many on this site have re-done the Catalina's with this very issue. My Ericson has a similar set up and since it is now 43 years old I'm just re-doing it before I have any issues with it.

Dave Neptune :cool:

jbsoukup 01-01-2013 11:15 AM

catalina 30 no start
 
I just happened to stop by and saw the thread was updated. My boat is on the hard since October 30 and I had no starting issues ever since I removed (bypassed)the ammeter. There are a bunch of other wires connected to it (already cleaned and re attached) and I was just too lazy to check what they were, so I left them in place as the engine runs fine but I think I'll do some work on it in the spring, maybe. I do have to admit it did hesitate a couple of times (literally like two or three times and when I keyed it again it fired right up) but nothing like the completely dead condition I was experiencing before. I wonder though, how long before I'll need to replace the harness; nothing lasts forever. If it wasn't for sails I'd be replacing it right away.

jbsoukup 01-01-2013 11:27 AM

sastanley, I have the exact same setup. I did pull the drawers but couldn't find another plug. probably didn't look hard enough. I'll add that to the spring list.

sastanley 01-01-2013 10:04 PM

jb...I had a plug at the engine, and another one behind the galley drawers as the harness made its way up into the port sail locker towards the instrument panel. I have heard of various configurations based on the length of the run..I have a tiller, so mine only goes to the port sail locker...I guess some boats with wheels may have had another set of plugs in the run to get it farther back in the cockpit...but I cannot confirm that..it is only my theory.

Here is a picture of the backside of my 'new' gauge cluster...there are no plugs any longer, just the two junction blocks...one on the forward bulkhead in the engine 'room' posted earlier in this thread, and this one, on the backside of the gauge cluster pan. I didn't quite achieve the same quality as Neil did with his re-wire, but I was inspired by his work, which you can find elsewhere on this forum with a little digging around...likely in the electrical section. :cool:

http://www.moyermarine.com//forums/a...2&d=1343098240

hanleyclifford 01-01-2013 10:38 PM

Looks good from here, Shawn.

ndutton 01-01-2013 11:08 PM

About those Catalina trailer plugs. . . .
 
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In alignment with Shawn, my boat was originally tiller steered with the engine instrument panel low in the cockpit footwell where it's difficult to see. My original engine harness had only two trailer plugs: one at the engine and one at the panel. I believe the third plug in the vicinity of the galley was common on wheel steered boats with the control panel in the cockpit coaming but that's not a guaranty. If there's a third plug it could be anywhere around the galley drawers, under the ice box or even under the cabin sole. The only way to be certain is to yank the old harness out and if you're going that far it makes little sense to put the old harness back.

The thread describing my harness replacement is entitled Kalina gets new engine electrical found in the electrical forum category.

As an added incentive to replace the harness or at least remove the dreaded plugs, here's the nightmare I removed from mine. Those plugs were for the builder's convenience, not yours.

sastanley 01-01-2013 11:24 PM

Thanks, Hanley...just for personal verification/clarification that I try to do things the right way...that renegade black wire with the yellow terminal that you see on the far right side of that terminal block in the pic and then apparently heading to nowhere to the left is a temporary ground wire to the old original Catalina electrical panel, which is just out of view..i am still working on re-wiring all of that. The running lights and the port side cabin lights still function with their original wiring, so that is why that funky ground wire is there. With all the manifold issues and other stuff I've found over the winter, the ongoing re-wire project may continue to get pushed back on the replacement list..:rolleyes:..as long as it still works..:cool:

Speaking of the manifold issues I've been having and tearing the boat apart...I had a ground wire that was on the engine that I didn't dare disconnect since it went off into an unknown part of the boat. I figured it was important, and I never knew what crazy stuff the P.O. had done, so I left it...it was grounded on the backside of the motor, wrapped around the coil/throttle cable bracket area. Since I had to yank all of that to get that stupid water tank in (another thread), I finally traced this wire and discovered it to be the ground wire for the blower..apologies to my Dad the P.O...not his doing. I wonder if there is an ABYC mandate that the blower motor be grounded to the engine. :confused:...it would be much cleaner for me to wire it to the ground bus on the gauge panel.

joe_db 01-02-2013 07:06 AM

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FYI - I installed one of these extra relays because of the same issues - a long run to the cockpit switch. I have had ZERO issues with starting since then. The start button in the cockpit activates the starter relay in the photo that is connected to the starter solenoid.

Mo 01-02-2013 08:53 AM

Tidy indeed.
 
That's some nice work done there Joe. Tidy indeed.

jbsoukup 01-03-2013 04:02 PM

joe, ditto on the nice relay install. just to be clear, I'm looking for a second plug - I only found one in the engine compartment. BTW my boat is also tiller steered.

sastanley 01-03-2013 11:18 PM

jb...My boat (#511) and Neil's boat (#600) are of similar vintage..both '77. I can't recall if you had posted previously what hull # yours is.

The two galley drawers to port of the stairs are easy to remove...the frame generally has 4 sheet metal screws into fiberglass..also easy..this gives you enough access to stick your head and a big light in there. Have you tried that yet?

Based on Neil's description, I would guess Catalina made these "harnesses" in 6'-8' lengths..as they went to longer runs, they just added another length(s) of harness..I had two short runs (at the engine and gauge pod) with a 6'-8' run in the middle..add a wheel and an aft gauge pod and it could be two or more sections..:confused:

Just throwing it out there for things to look at...I have no positive data on this.

jbsoukup 01-04-2013 01:19 PM

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I'm pretty sure my hull is #783 but I don't have the paperwork (or boat) in front of me right now. I'm also pretty sure I reached in there and traced the harness with my hand and didn't feel a plug. I have had the drawer frame out on several occasions but not for the purposes of locating the plug. Next time I go to the yard I'll check for sure. Like I said before, I'm not really worried about the wires but I would feel better if I could verify the condition of the plug -if there is one. The other one looked absolutely fine and of course I cleaned it anyway which is all I would do to the other one provided it's in good condition. The plugs don't really bother me as they have worked fine for over 30 years, as long as I can keep an eye on them that is.
here's a picture of Her, just for grins http://www.moyermarine.com/forums/at...1&d=1357323394

jbsoukup 01-04-2013 01:34 PM

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sorry, little too big!http://www.moyermarine.com/forums/at...1&d=1357324462


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