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-   -   Palmer P60 (https://www.moyermarineforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11354)

AFisch 12-11-2019 06:26 PM

Palmer P60
 
Hey All...so it was suggested I start a new thread here...

To back track...I have an old Columbia with a Palmer...been having shut down problems, have done all tests, spark, fuel filters, fuel pump, new fuel lines, compression, etc. Was still having an issue with the engine shutting down after a few minutes of running.

I have now taken off the Carb and it is an Old Zenith with no part number, but just orders a rebuild kit from Moyer that looks like it'll work. This should be arriving in the next week, so I will be sure to post an update after I clean it and get it back to factory good.

I hope you all find me on this thread!

Adam

Dave Neptune 12-11-2019 08:04 PM

Any pics of t=your Zenith. Probably the same carb or at least very close. Is it a Series 67?

Your symptoms and troubles should be in direct comparison to the A-4. Similar size and style just a different manufacturer.

Dave Neptune :cool:

Dave Neptune 12-11-2019 08:05 PM

Got ya
 
Any pics of your Zenith. Probably the same carb or at least very close. Is it a Series 67?

Your symptoms and troubles should be in direct comparison to the A-4. Similar size and style just a different manufacturer.

Dave Neptune :cool:

ndutton 12-11-2019 10:54 PM

Based on your description I'm sure a carburetor rebuild is in order but I'm doubtful it will solve your problem. It really sounds like contaminated fuel to me. Do you have a mechanical or electric fuel pump?

I suggest you search the forum to read up on testing with an auxiliary fuel tank.

joe_db 12-12-2019 09:31 AM

Second that. I am about 90% sure your problem will persist. Did you ever check the fuel pressure?

AFisch 12-12-2019 12:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ndutton (Post 119412)
Based on your description I'm sure a carburetor rebuild is in order but I'm doubtful it will solve your problem. It really sounds like contaminated fuel to me. Do you have a mechanical or electric fuel pump?

I suggest you search the forum to read up on testing with an auxiliary fuel tank.

I replaced the fuel pump (electric pump), and also tested from an auxiliary 5 gallon jerry can of fresh fuel...this was before I took the carb off...the problem still happened when doing that.

And looking at the fuel coming out of the tank when checking the flow all the way down to the line going into the carb, it all looks clean and had a steady flow to it.

Adam

AFisch 12-12-2019 12:10 PM

1 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave Neptune (Post 119408)
Any pics of t=your Zenith. Probably the same carb or at least very close. Is it a Series 67?

Your symptoms and troubles should be in direct comparison to the A-4. Similar size and style just a different manufacturer.

Dave Neptune :cool:

This is the only pic I have so far...I'll put it together and take a better pic.

Don Moyer 12-12-2019 04:00 PM

Late model carb on Palmer P60
 
AFisch, For whatever it's worth, and if you can't resurrect your old carburetor, we do sell a handful of new Atomic 4 Zenith carburetors to Palmer P60 owners each year, and they work fine. https://moyermarine.com/product/carb...fcar_13-2_166/ .

The only complication is that original carburetors used on Palmer engines (as well as those on early model Atomic 4s) had internal scavenge tubes. So, to be Coast Guard legal, you'll need the additional adaptive parts listed in the product description in our catalog to provide a scavenge tube. This requirement will likely exist for any currently available new carburetor that would work on your Palmer P-60. You can call Ken at (610) 421-4436 for more information. Don

AFisch 12-12-2019 04:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Don Moyer (Post 119423)
AFisch, For whatever it's worth, and if you can't resurrect your old carburetor, we do sell a handful of new Atomic 4 Zenith carburetors to Palmer P60 owners each year, and they work fine. https://moyermarine.com/product/carb...fcar_13-2_166/ .

The only complication is that original carburetors used on Palmer engines (as well as those on early model Atomic 4s) had internal scavenge tubes. So, to be Coast Guard legal, you'll need the additional adaptive parts listed in the product description in our catalog to provide a scavenge tube. This requirement will likely exist for any currently available new carburetor that would work on your Palmer P-60. You can call Ken at (610) 421-4436 for more information. Don

Thanks Don...I already bought the rebuild kit from your website for the early model carbs...should be arriving on the 18th and I will get to cleaning this one and putting it back together. If I have problems, I will certainly look to buying a new one.

Dave Neptune 12-14-2019 11:24 AM

Aisch, be very careful cleaning out the idle circuit. The idle jet in this series carb is very small and could easily be plugged by a "spec" of debris.

Also do install the scavenge tube as it can eliminate a big bang or burn:eek:. It is a safety devise and it is very simple.

When you do try to start with the rebuilt carb do try using an auxiliary fuel tank and a gravity feed of a few feet will run her up enough to see if all is well. Once confirmed "good" then try feeding with the boats tank. If anything goes amiss do remove and flush the carb immediately. Probably no need to redo but you will at least know if the fuel in the tank is good~~somewhat important.

Do use new lines and freshen the filters for the rebuilt carb if it passes the auxiliary fuel test.

This is a perfect time to add a fuel pressure gage which can save much time diagnosing in the future.:rolleyes:

Dave Neptune :cool:

joe_db 12-14-2019 12:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by joe_db (Post 119414)
Second that. I am about 90% sure your problem will persist. Did you ever check the fuel pressure?

I think I changed my mind, that carb looks nasty :eek:
I would think about a new one IMHO. I had one that caused endless issues no matter how many times it was cleaned or rebuilt and I finally got Moyer to mail me a new one mid-cruise.

AFisch 12-16-2019 11:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave Neptune (Post 119438)
Aisch, be very careful cleaning out the idle circuit. The idle jet in this series carb is very small and could easily be plugged by a "spec" of debris.

Also do install the scavenge tube as it can eliminate a big bang or burn:eek:. It is a safety devise and it is very simple.

When you do try to start with the rebuilt carb do try using an auxiliary fuel tank and a gravity feed of a few feet will run her up enough to see if all is well. Once confirmed "good" then try feeding with the boats tank. If anything goes amiss do remove and flush the carb immediately. Probably no need to redo but you will at least know if the fuel in the tank is good~~somewhat important.

Do use new lines and freshen the filters for the rebuilt carb if it passes the auxiliary fuel test.

This is a perfect time to add a fuel pressure gage which can save much time diagnosing in the future.:rolleyes:

Dave Neptune :cool:

Thanks Dave...I like the idea of testing the rebuilt carb with the auxillary tank first...I am also going to replace all spark plugs and will change all filters again as well. And I'll get that pressure gauge installed too.

Adam

AFisch 12-16-2019 11:47 AM

Hey Dave Neptune...in the other Palmer Thread you mentioned to me:

"Do not trade in your carb yet, will get to why later if you go further."

I feel like I am further now...and after your recent suggestion as well as Joe-DB and Don's recent comments, I am now thinking I just get a new Carb...Should I still go for the rebuild or maybe just replace?

I will call Moyer and see if I can return the rebuild kit (which is supposed to arrive to me on the 18th) and see if I can just get a new carb.

Adam

Dave Neptune 12-16-2019 12:22 PM

AFisch, you have a cast iron carb like the older A-4's used. They are an excellent carb and lend themselves to rebuilding quite well as long as the halves match and there are no rusted out sealing surfaces. The CI will rust and the rust can be cleaned out whereas the alloy bodies can create all kinds of "oxidation & pitting" which is no good and hard to clean or repair.

If you have the "original" carb it is a good thing because the metering for the P-60 will be in it. You can get the numbers and do a good match. RE the new A-4 carb the metering should be almost the same as the P-60 as they are about the same duty (HP) and displacement. No real worries with operation if a god carb is supplied like from MMI. And you will need to install the scavenge tube which is no biggie as it is just a standard 1/8" copper tube that it breaths through externally on the A-4 late model:rolleyes:.

I have always recommended using a "top oil" in these old engines and MMO works fine if it is your preference. I prefer a newer synthetic grade of 2-stroke oil that is designed to burn with fuel, it is graded as "TC-W3". I used it in my ole beastie for 34 years with no issues. I mixed about 1 oz. per gallon which is 128 to 1 and creates no smoke. I recommend going to a richer mix if your engine tends to have sticky valves.

Dave Neptune :cool:

tenders 12-19-2019 05:38 AM

By "metering," Dave, I think you're referring to the jet sizes in the carburetor? Those are visible when you remove the brass jets and look very carefully at the tiny numbers engraved on the side. I have to use my iPhone to take photos of these numbers and zoom in on the photos.

By "top oil" Dave is referring to a bit of oil you add to the gasoline - as opposed to the crankcase or transmission - like we used to do with two-stroke engines before they started coming with automatic oil injection systems. Many people including me use Marvel Mystery Oil this way and it's been flawless in stopping a sporadic sticking valve situation in my engine.

If MMO is not your thing, or if you need something more viscous for whatever reason, I've been fussing around with two-stroke scooter engines over the past year and can confirm that modern oils like TC-W3 create FAR FAR less smoke than the old oils used to, just 10 years ago. There is an even less smoky Japanese oil standard called JASO, which you can buy on Amazon. Modern two-stroke scooter engines use it - and yes, there are modern two-stroke engines being sold today that conform to US emissions laws.

https://www.oilspecifications.org/jaso.php

Al Schober 12-19-2019 09:28 AM

Anyone else miss the odor of two stroke engines using castor oil? I remember going to the motorcycle races at Bridgestone, UK when a fragrant fog would envelop the crowd. Then there was my neighbor's two stroke Saab...

Dave Neptune 12-19-2019 10:02 AM

Ah Castor oil and purple fuel
 
Al, I do remember the Castor oil smell. As I remember the Castor oil did not want to stay mixed very well either. I also am seeing a few using Castor oil again in ethanol fuels and alcohol assisted engines as the Castor will stay mixed in ethanol fuels.

All fuel are much "drier" today which is why we see harder materials being used in the valve train and rings. These harder materials wear a bit better with the drier fuels and top oiling is becoming popular in the performance market and with economy/longevity buffs like myself. I have been running the TC-W3 oil in my last 4 vehicles, a 32V Intec, an LT1 and my current Dodge hemi. The Intec went 260K, the Vette 365K and the Hemi has 165K and still purring. When I sold the cars they were still not using hardly any oil and ran strong.

Dave Neptune :cool:

AFisch 12-19-2019 12:10 PM

I got my re-build kit delivered yesterday!!

I will hopefully be tackling the cleaning and re-building the carb tonight or in the next day or so.

Quick question...I took the flame arrestor off...when putting it back on, should I use any type of sealant or tape around the join?

Same question for the oil dipstick tube that I had to remove to get access to the carb in the first place. (Wish I had a pic to show you what I am talking about).

Adam

Dave Neptune 12-19-2019 12:50 PM

AFisch, no sealant on the carb stuff.. The dip-stick tube will seal well with a bit of Permatex aviation grade or #2.

Dave Neptune :cool:

Dave Neptune 12-19-2019 12:56 PM

Caution
 
Adam, do take a lot of care setting he float. It is a 2 step setting~~first is the height of the float for fuel level, then be sure that the float is parallel to the body when measuring. This takes a bit of patience and do not twist the tabs against the floats use 2 narrow pliers and just tweek the tabs;).;)

Dave Neptune :cool:

AFisch 12-20-2019 04:52 PM

Ok, I think I got it cleaned out as best as possible...:eek:

Have it all put back together and will be heading down tomorrow to re-install.

Wish me luck!
Adam

AFisch 12-21-2019 12:41 AM

Well...Update. Turns out my wife wanted to take the kids to the park with a bunch of extra Mom's/Kids...so I ran down to the boat, re-hooked up the carb, ran from an Auxiliary tank and Viola...she ran fantastic! Shut her down and hooked up to the fuel tank, fired right back up with no problems. Let it run for well over an hour.

So back track to when I was cleaning/rebuilding carb...one of the floats was bent. Not only did I bend it back into place (carefully), but also cleaned out the whole carb thoroughly.

Leading me back to my inclination that for some reason the carb was not getting anymore gas after it used up what was in the bowl.

Should be a good day for sailing tomorrow, we are finally going to take her out again and see how things hold up.

Thank you everyone for your input and guidance... I will keep you posted how it all goes.

JOHN COOKSON 12-21-2019 01:56 AM

Good to hear the engine is running normally. These sort of victories are always sweet. I've been through a few of these engine drills myself. Back in the "good old days" there was no Moyer forum and no internet for guidance.

It probably has been mentioned already...... What is your fuel filter system?
At a minimum there should be some sort of filter between the tank and fuel pump to catch the bigger particles and a "polishing filter" between the fuel pump and carburetor to stop the smaller particles.

ex TRUE GRIT

AFisch 12-21-2019 04:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JOHN COOKSON (Post 119476)
Good to hear the engine is running normally. These sort of victories are always sweet. I've been through a few of these engine drills myself. Back in the "good old days" there was no Moyer forum and no internet for guidance.

It probably has been mentioned already...... What is your fuel filter system?
At a minimum there should be some sort of filter between the tank and fuel pump to catch the bigger particles and a "polishing filter" between the fuel pump and carburetor to stop the smaller particles.

ex TRUE GRIT

Thank you...yes, little victories mean the most!

As for the fuel filter system...It is actually reversed from the previous owner, but only for reasons of they way everything fits in the engine compartment. There is a small filter between the fuel pump and tank, and then the Raycor fuel/water separator between the pump and the carburetor. I will reverse this order this weekend, and add a fuel pressure gauge as well...

Thanks everyone here for all the help...without you guys and youtube, I would have been lost!

Adam

lat 64 12-21-2019 06:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Al Schober (Post 119461)
Anyone else miss the odor of two stroke engines using castor oil? I remember going to the motorcycle races at Bridgestone, UK when a fragrant fog would envelop the crowd. Then there was my neighbor's two stroke Saab...

My brother had a Saab 96 two-stroke. The factory stage-one racing mod was just cut off the exhaust pipe about 16 inches from the exhaust ports". That's all.
I still have three new pistons for that engine and some cans of oil in my junk pile out under the snow.
Saabs were big up here because they got stuck less than the average Dodge dart.
Great ski trip mobile too.


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