Won't start at all now!

[SailingReckless]

Long, long list of problems with this boat and engine. Put my boat in the water in May. Got the engine running long enough to get it into my slip. However, it ran horrible and stalled out during the 2 minute trip through the marina. I haven't had much time this season to work on the engine. I put in new spark plugs. I originally gapped them to .035 but then changed it to .025 after a recommendation from the mechanic here at my marina. I also took the carburetor off and cleaned it out. It was gummed up but overall looked really good on the inside. Put it all together and back on and followed the manufacturers instructions on resetting and it still wouldn't start. Took the carburetor off to take it up to the marina mechanic and the carb had water in it. So I disconnected the fuel line and am pulling gas from a small gas can. Someone recommended that I check the timing. So I pulled the distributor to inspect it. (I wish now that I hadn't because I have since read in the manual that you should never need to pull the distributor out)
I bought the timing tech video from Don and followed his instruction. I'm still not getting it to start or even try to start. Its just cranking, no firing. I checked to make sure the plugs are getting spark and they are. Any recommendations on what to try next? I tried putting gas in the throat of the carb to start and nothing. I tried putting a little gas in 2 of the cylinders and nothing.
I'm going to go through the timing procedure again now because at one point in the video when Don is putting the distributor back in the hole he says oops thats one tooth over. So maybe I didn't get it put back in the correct position?! Would that slight of an off placement cause it to not start at all? Thanks for all your help guys

[roadnsky]

Wow, where to start?

First, do you have points or EI?
Do you know the procedure to set the distro at TDC (Top Dead Center)?
(See attached doc)
What spark plugs did you put in?
(I'm not sure the advice to gap your plugs at .025 is wise but we'll get to that later)
Are you CERTAIN that the plug wires are in the correct firing order?

Also, do you have the Moyer Manual?

[SailingReckless]

I got it started! I reset the distributor in it's hole one tooth back and it fired up
New problem....first time I started it up the exhaust was spitting out dirty water. I let it run for about 5 minutes and shut it down. The next time I started it up there wasn't any water spitting out the exhaust. Just steam or smoke coming out. I opened up the water pump and checked the impeller. Impeller is intact. I put in a new thermostat in last year. What are the steps to running this problem down?

[tenders]

No water means that water isn't getting in, through, or out. Which is it?

Not getting in...because the intake is clogged between the outside of the boat and the water pump?

Not getting through...remove the discharge water line from the manifold (briefly) and see if water comes through when the engine cranks - you can run it for 15 seconds or so without worrying about the exhaust melting.

Not getting out...because there's a blockage in the exhaust? Old exhaust hoses sometimes fail from the inside.

[Sam]

Do you have "early model [about pre 1969] or" later model" A4. Cooling plumbing is different with tstat and or by pass valve. Early model you could easily have some white steam out exhaust for a few minutes prior to engine getting to tstate temp and then water surging out. A little water is allowed past the tstat to mix/cool with raw exhaust creating "white smoke".

If later engine do you have "stand pipe" exhaust or "loop/muffler' system? Do I understand this right that engine wasn't fired up since may?

[SailingReckless]

This is the newer model engine.
I opened up the water pump and took out the impeller. It looked good and water came out when I opened it up. Then I looked at the hoses leading to the thermostat. Looked good. Last year when I replaced the head gasket, I put on what I thought was a new thermostat. Turns out I just replaced the housing.
There was no thermostat in there originally and me not really knowing anything about engines or what I'm doing I just bought a new housing and put it on there. I did call and talk to the guy at my local marine supply about it and he told me that its ok and that all that will do is cause the engine to run cooler which is possibly why the previous owner didn't have one in there to begin with.

So I took the thermostat housing off and noted that there was water inside the hole. After that I looked at the hose going from the thermostat to the manifold. The hose looked good but really dry. Everything else up until that point had traces of water from my earlier cranking and starting of the engine.

I need to tell you about the water lines going to the engine. The previous owner changed the original plan. The thru-hull fitting for the water intake is about 2 feet from the engine. The hose goes from there straight back to the stern to a valve in the cockpit that I open once the engine is fired up and close when I shut her down. From there the hose goes all the way back to the engine and enters the water pump. It is about 30 feet of hose that the water must travel from the thru-hull fitting back to the water pump.
I have not yet checked anything leaving the manifold. However it all looks pretty shiny and new. Definitely not original. I've seen pics of the old exhaust lines that are all corroded and blocked up.
I stopped chasing it down yesterday because I was apprehensive to keep cranking the engine. The ignition coil was hot and I'm not sure how much they can take before they burn up and go bad. I just bought this one!
So .025 plug gap not good? Should I go back to .035? I read about the gaps and it depends on how much power, rpms, etc, etc. It all goes over my head. Lol
Also, engine won't start unless I put a little gas right in the throat of the carburetor. Carburetor adjustment needed? I am feeding it from a can of gas right now because I suspect that I have water in the gas tank. I just took off and cleaned out both the manual fuel pump and carburetor. Could an air leak in the gas lines cause it? I don't love how the old copper fuel lines screw on. The threads seem weak. I tried replacing them with new fuel lines but the loop of line collapsed. Maybe I bought the wrong fuel line because I see pictures of other people using rubber(?) gas line instead of the old copper.
I'm leaving the boat this morning for the week. I'll be back next weekend.
Thanks again!

[roadnsky]

I need to tell you about the water lines going to the engine. The previous owner changed the original plan. The thru-hull fitting for the water intake is about 2 feet from the engine. The hose goes from there straight back to the stern to a valve in the cockpit that I open once the engine is fired up and close when I shut her down. From there the hose goes all the way back to the engine and enters the water pump. It is about 30 feet of hose that the water must travel from the thru-hull fitting back to the water pump.

I'm not sure what that "valve" accomplishes but I would advise you to ditch that setup.
That's a long way for your cooling water to travel and for what?
Go straight from the thru hull to the water pump inlet.

So .025 plug gap not good? Should I go back to .035? I read about the gaps and it depends on how much power, rpms, etc, etc. It all goes over my head.

Your spark plug gap will depend on if you have POINTS or you have EI...
On this site many gap at .035 for POINTS
and at .040 to .045 for EI setup

I just took off and cleaned out both the manual fuel pump and carburetor. Could an air leak in the gas lines cause it?

YES!
I'll let the MANUAL PUMP guys help you with priming the system.

I don't love how the old copper fuel lines screw on. The threads seem weak. I tried replacing them with new fuel lines but the loop of line collapsed. Maybe I bought the wrong fuel line because I see pictures of other people using rubber(?) gas line instead of the old copper.

If it were my boat, yes, I would replace with proper fuel rated hose and fittings.
Let's get you running first and the forum can help you with getting this fixed up.

[lat 64]

Quote:
I just took off and cleaned out both the manual fuel pump and carburetor. Could an air leak in the gas lines cause it?
YES!
I'll let the MANUAL PUMP guys help you with priming the system.


Quote:
I don't love how the old copper fuel lines screw on. The threads seem weak. I tried replacing them with new fuel lines but the loop of line collapsed. Maybe I bought the wrong fuel line because I see pictures of other people using rubber(?) gas line instead of the old copper.
If it were my boat, yes, I would replace with proper fuel rated hose and fittings.
Let's get you running first and the forum can help you with getting this fixed up.
__________________

Something to understand here; the fuel system is set up so that if you get a leak, it will suck air into the lines–not spray fuel out in to the boat. The hazard is rather obvious for that. Kp this concept in mind when you do new fuel lines.

Re: new fuel lines, just make sure it is "fuel-rated' special stuff. not discount store hose.

keep up the good work. you seem to be identifying the causes to problems in a steady fahsion.

[capnward]

Your mechanical pump creates enough suction to overcome any small air leaks in the line upstream of it, so it won't fill up with air and stop working. Your carb was gummed up, that would be ethanol mixing with water in the gas. You will need new fuel filters. If the carb had water in it that may be because your water separator filter got too full of water, or the gummy stuff. Drain the filter into a glass jar and see. Find a source for non-ethanol gas. No water coming out the exhaust is probably because of the 30 foot airspace in the hose between the water intake and the water pump, and the pump doesn't get primed. That's hard on the impeller. The previous owner probably put that in to make it easier to turn the water flow on after the engine started, to keep you from putting exhaust water backward into the cylinders when overcranking. Instead of putting gas directly into the carb throat, try using the hand bail under the fuel pump to pressurize the line up to the float valve in the carb. Then engine will start sooner, and you are less likely to over-crank.

[ndutton]

Your mechanical pump creates enough suction to overcome any small air leaks in the line upstream of it, so it won't fill up with air and stop working.

I propose the corrective action is to repair leaks in the fuel system, not count on a pump to overcome them.

[SailingReckless]

Here’s where I’m at with this now....
I got rid of the 30 feet of hose for then raw water intake and came in from the thru hole and right up to the engine. Here’s what with wrong with that.....
I didn’t pay attention to the fact that this valve is setup backwards. Handle straight in line is closed. Handle perpendicular is open. I’m guessing placement of that water intake is such that when left open when engine shuts down it floods the engine block. I’m sure it would’ve been ok if I had realized the proper open/closed position of the valve because after the engine shut down I closed it. In reality tho I actually opened it and left it sitting open like that for a week.

So when I tried starting the engine today after being gone all week I noticed that it sounded different while cranking it over. I checked the oil and of course it was milky.
So I know how the water got in but my question is what now? I know I need to drain the oil and replace it but what about the cylinders and valves that were full of water? Do I drain the water out somehow?
Thanks guys!

Also I don’t know if it’s against the rules of this forum but are any of you willing to give me your number to text engine pics and questions to? This forum is the best and I am so grateful for it but my service and WiFi are so terrible at the boat that I have to leave to get on here😑 if so, please just send me a private message. Thanks again!

[SailingReckless]

I’m just sitting here watching water leak out of that hole by the stud now for almost an hour?!

[SailingReckless]

Just had a guy on the phone with me and he helped me run everything down and talk thru everything with me. I’m thinking now that it’s possible that I didn’t have the head torqued down properly and water was sneaking into the cylinders. Gonna change out the oil and take care to get proper torque on all the studs and see what happens. Fingers crossed!

[jcwright]

Just in case your phone consultant didn't mention it, please make sure you re-torque the head nuts in the proper sequence and ft-pound increments. I should also mention that the practice of re-using head gaskets gets mixed reviews from those who have tried it.

best regards,

jack.

[JOHN COOKSON]

I’m thinking now that it’s possible that I didn’t have the head torqued down properly and water was sneaking into the cylinders. the studs and see what happens.

And maybe just maybe torquing technique is right on and the head is warped.
While the head is off why not have it checked for flatness? I'm not an expert on all this - I think machine shop can check for flatness of the head.

TRUE GRIT